How bad are really deep drop brakes?

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PT1029
Posts: 1744
Joined: 16 Apr 2012, 9:20pm

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by PT1029 »

+1 for a longer caliper with the pads (say) half way down the adjustment range than say a shorter caliper with the pads at the bottom of the adjustment range.
If you want an example, some Ridgeback hybrids I see (more "traditional" models) have deepish dual pivot brakes (think 35mm tyres + mud guards). They are built/designed so the pads have to be right at the bottom of the adjustment slot. The braking is absolutely awful - doesn't matter if the bike is new or used.
Don't forget longer calipers usually have wider arms at the top, so making up for the extra length.
LuckyLuke
Posts: 374
Joined: 10 Jun 2010, 11:54am

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by LuckyLuke »

deejayen wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 11:59am
I'll need to measure up - do you have any tips on measuring the bike and rim to ascertain the exact required brake drop?

Also, what's the actual pivot bolt length for front and rear brakes - ie the bit which goes through the frame and forks? I think the frame at the rear of my bike is probably a bit deeper than most front forks, so I'll need to make sure the bolts are long enough.
Hi, IIRC I found instructions on measuring up on Sheldon Brown’s site. I think you fit wheel in the fork and measure from the centre of the hole where the brake bolt goes, to the centre of the rim. Something along those lines, but it was a few months ago so please check.

Good point about the type of brake bolts; whether they are ‘recessed bolt’ type or ‘nutted axle’ type. Mine were for old school frames and the nutted axle type. Sheldon has some info on this too. Vendors and manufacturers should and do list this info. It is possible to dismantle some calliper brakes to lengthen or shorten the bolt. Have done so once when I couldn’t find a brake I needed. Found helpful instructions out there on t’internet.

Best wishes

Luke
LuckyLuke
Posts: 374
Joined: 10 Jun 2010, 11:54am

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by LuckyLuke »

PT1029 wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 8:23pm +1 for a longer caliper with the pads (say) half way down the adjustment range than say a shorter caliper with the pads at the bottom of the adjustment range.
Hi, good point. I’d forgotten about this.
I think Brucey of this parish wrote about this, which informed my choice of brake for the conversion upthread. Deejayen, worth bearing this in mind too.
Best wishes,
Luke
NickJP
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Joined: 24 Sep 2018, 7:11pm
Location: Canberra, OZ

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by NickJP »

I have the Tektro R556/559 calipers (55-73mm drop) on three 650B bikes. The braking is fine on all of them, and that includes rides down some quite big mountain passes. The levers I'm using with the calipers are 1) Shimano R400, 2) Campag Record from 10-speed days, 3) SRAM Force 11-speed double-tap. On all three brakes I replaced the supplied pads with Kool-Stop Dura 2 brake pad inserts - the Tektro pad holders are identical to those on Shimano, SRAM, and TRP brakes, and take the same inserts.
mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by mattheus »

NickJP wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:05am I have the Tektro R556/559 calipers (55-73mm drop) on three 650B bikes. The braking is fine on all of them, and that includes rides down some quite big mountain passes. The levers I'm using with the calipers are 1) Shimano R400, 2) Campag Record from 10-speed days, 3) SRAM Force 11-speed double-tap. On all three brakes I replaced the supplied pads with Kool-Stop Dura 2 brake pad inserts - the Tektro pad holders are identical to those on Shimano, SRAM, and TRP brakes, and take the same inserts.
That's interesting.

Are they quite fat tyres? Hence requiring the blocks to use most of the drop?

[I have serioulsy considered your setup in one of my frames designed for 700c, but there's probably another thread about that already ... ]
Jupestar
Posts: 920
Joined: 29 Feb 2020, 3:03pm

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by Jupestar »

I have TRP RG957 on my single speed. Maybe not long drop enough for these purposes. but they are as good as any brake, of the various types, i've ever used
a.twiddler
Posts: 347
Joined: 4 Jun 2009, 12:17am

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by a.twiddler »

I can only speak from my own experience. As this thread started with a reference to recumbents I will continue in that vein. My much adapted Iowa Linear LWB recumbent depends mostly on its back brake for stopping effect as at lower speeds or loose surfaces the lightly loaded front will lock easily. Brakes at that end are no problem having a Sachs Drum fitted when I bought it.

The rear is a different issue. There was a rather weedy single pivot nameless caliper at the rear with a long reach with the pads at the limit of the adjustment slots. I went through the usual routine of best adjustment, trying different levers, then new pads, shortening and re routing the cable. I found that on this older design it was possible to change the cable pull from above to bottom pull, which eased one of the bends in the cable routing. All these incremental changes helped, but it still restricted my speed downhill as the stopping ability was still not great.

I reasoned that an even longer reach brake, even if single caliper, with the brake pads only half way down the slots ought to give better leverage and so better braking. I then found that one of the original fitments for the Linear was an old school BMX type Dia Compe "Big Dog" double pivot long reach caliper brake. I managed to get hold of one of these and it has transformed the braking. Maybe not as sharp as a V brake but it's much more confidence inspiring now. The original brake was more flexy than a flexy thing but the "Big Dog" is more beefy as well as having enough reach to allow the brake pads to be only part way down the slots. For me, a very worthwhile improvement.

Other old school BMX style brakes are still findable, so it's worth a try to see if something like this might help with the long reach brake problem.
NickJP
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Joined: 24 Sep 2018, 7:11pm
Location: Canberra, OZ

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by NickJP »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:47am
NickJP wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:05am I have the Tektro R556/559 calipers (55-73mm drop) on three 650B bikes. The braking is fine on all of them, and that includes rides down some quite big mountain passes. The levers I'm using with the calipers are 1) Shimano R400, 2) Campag Record from 10-speed days, 3) SRAM Force 11-speed double-tap. On all three brakes I replaced the supplied pads with Kool-Stop Dura 2 brake pad inserts - the Tektro pad holders are identical to those on Shimano, SRAM, and TRP brakes, and take the same inserts.
That's interesting. Are they quite fat tyres? Hence requiring the blocks to use most of the drop?
Well, the drop is determined by the frame and not the tyre, and the blocks are about half way down the slots on the caliper arms on all three bikes. With that amount of clearance I can run 42mm tyres (nominal size, actual size is ~40mm) under mudguards.
mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by mattheus »

NickJP wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:27am
Well, the drop is determined by the frame and not the tyre,
Well actually it's determined by the combination of frame and rim diameter, but I know what you're saying :P

Thanks 👍
rogerzilla
Posts: 2887
Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by rogerzilla »

The 100mm sidepulls are competely ineffectual. A coaster brake may be a solution.
Ross K
Posts: 77
Joined: 25 Oct 2013, 8:14pm

Re: How bad are really deep drop brakes?

Post by Ross K »

Another vote for R559 Tektro brakes.

Remarkably (in fact, surprisingly) good with decent pads. As used on my old 531 bike from 1985. Used as a winter bike, so often I'm braking in the wet. With Koolstop salmon pads (or similar soft compound) the braking is almost as good as modern Ultegra shallow drop brakes, and that's saying something!
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