Dallian Atkinson aquittal

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Tangled Metal
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

Perhaps an ex police officer could confirm whether there are zones of the body the police are trained to hit and zones not to hit due to the high chance of a serious outcome for the receiver of such a strike?

I've heard these zones of the body that are not supposed to be struck with a baton called red zones. The head AIUI was one such red zone. If true then surely she's going to be an ex copper soon? I must point out that there b was no mention in the OPs link about where she hit him. Whilst the head is the red zone i remember there are several other red zones too. As trained police officer, which was what she was even though still probationary, she would know better than i where to hit and not hit.

BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer. I do not know what the training is but all the trained police officers I know had a degree of confidence and presence to them that I always put down to training.

As to restraint I used to know a guy who trained police in unarmed restraint techniques. Also not a John Q public skillset.

<edited to clarify point about red zones>
Last edited by Tangled Metal on 30 Sep 2022, 2:24pm, edited 1 time in total.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm Perhaps an ex police officer could confirm whether there are zones of the body the police are trained to hit and zones not to hit due to the high chance of a serious outcome for the receiver of such a strike?

I've heard these zones of the body that are not supposed to be struck with a baton called red zones. The head AIUI was one such red zone. If true then surely she's going to be an ex copper soon?

BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer. I do not know what the training is but all the trained police officers I know had a degree of confidence and presence to them that I always put down to training.

As to restraint I used to know a guy who trained police in unarmed restraint techniques. Also not a John Q public skillset.
Has it been establish she hit him on the head, there was some dispute a few posts back.

Not an excopper, but know they are not supposed to go for the head, giving circumstances of course, general the thigh is the main target when standing, I'm not sure there is any guidance on where best to hit someone laying down probably didn't think it was required
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Jdsk »

Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm Perhaps an ex police officer could confirm whether there are zones of the body the police are trained to hit and zones not to hit due to the high chance of a serious outcome for the receiver of such a strike?
This sort of thing?

Image

...

The best starting place to find police guidance and policies in the UK is the College of Policing:
https://www.college.police.uk/
https://www.college.police.uk/app/deten ... l-violence

...

And there was a report by the Crown Prosecution Service into police use of batons:
https://www.statewatch.org/statewatch-d ... -injuries/

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

mattheus wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:26am
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:03am I think that supports my point, I'm not sure any other violent bully attacking a helpless man would have got off so lightly
I would hope the jury judged the case on its merits, and not whether anyone considered him a "violent bully":

... but actually I'm pretty sure many people have received similar sentences for similar actions. And usually out of pure malice (or drunkenness), not as part of their duties defending the public.

EDIT: just to be clear, I don't think the 8-year sentence was unduly harsh.
An ex-copper in prison - he'll find the sentence very harsh indeed.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 11:34am
pwa wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:05am
pete75 wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 12:31am
Acting out of fear when in "action". If a soldier acts out of fear isn't that called cowardice in the face of the enemy and attracts severe punishment....
I make some allowance for the fact she was an inexperienced recruit at the time. And fear for one's own life is deeply ingrained in most of us. If consumed by that fear, you could very well want to make sure that the cause of that fear was not going to get up again.
Some years ago whne I was a student in Leeds I was attacked by a mugger. I dropped him with a couple of punches but didn't then go on the kick him in the head a few times while he was on the ground to stop him getting up again. If he had tried to get up that's when I'd have hit him again. So no I don't make any allowance for what you describe.

Even after all these years I still have a faint white scar on the edge of my palm where he cuaght me with his knife. Was going for his wrist but was a bit too slow.
You'd have been justified in hitting him on the ground if you had judged that it improved the chances of him not getting up and harming you. It's not a boxing match with Marquis of Queensbury Rules, it is a fight for survival. And your natural reactions are not going to be the same as someone else's. Perhaps she has a survival mode different to yours. All that matters is that she was concerned with her own survival, which is more or less what she claimed. To me it seems credible, which makes a conviction for assault a non-starter.

On the other hand, I do think you at least speak from a point of relevant experience. I too have been the subject of a violent attack from, in my case, a nutter looking for someone to hurt. I had a few cuts and bruises but apart from that I shrugged it off. But it did show me how, when confronted with a violent individual who may be stronger than you, your world changes. Old certainties and opinions don't matter anymore. Rules don't figure so highly. You are in another form of existence where any weakness on your part could cost you dearly. I would be slow to judge another person's reactions when they are put in that position.
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:41pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm Perhaps an ex police officer could confirm whether there are zones of the body the police are trained to hit and zones not to hit due to the high chance of a serious outcome for the receiver of such a strike?

I've heard these zones of the body that are not supposed to be struck with a baton called red zones. The head AIUI was one such red zone. If true then surely she's going to be an ex copper soon?

BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer. I do not know what the training is but all the trained police officers I know had a degree of confidence and presence to them that I always put down to training.
Has it been establish she hit him on the head, there was some dispute a few posts back.
Yes, what is your source, @Tangled_Metal ?
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer.
Reports state she'd never experienced live use of Tasers on a criminal/suspect. That's just one example of how on-the-job training will be a significant, and long-term, feature of an officer's development.
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 8:28am
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:41pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm Perhaps an ex police officer could confirm whether there are zones of the body the police are trained to hit and zones not to hit due to the high chance of a serious outcome for the receiver of such a strike?

I've heard these zones of the body that are not supposed to be struck with a baton called red zones. The head AIUI was one such red zone. If true then surely she's going to be an ex copper soon?

BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer. I do not know what the training is but all the trained police officers I know had a degree of confidence and presence to them that I always put down to training.
Has it been establish she hit him on the head, there was some dispute a few posts back.
Yes, what is your source, @Tangled_Metal ?
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer.
Reports state she'd never experienced live use of Tasers on a criminal/suspect. That's just one example of how on-the-job training will be a significant, and long-term, feature of an officer's development.
There will always be a first time for every one, as only dangerous people are likely to be tasered, are we also accepting that every one will react the same way and hit people, the first time

To some extent she is a victim of circumstances, if the other cop hadn't killed the guy, no mention of this would have occurred and she would be able to carry on hitting defenceless suspects when ever she felt like it with impunity
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am There will always be a first time for every one, as only dangerous people are likely to be tasered, are we also accepting that every one will react the same way and hit people, the first time
err .. no? I don't understand this post.
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:39am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am There will always be a first time for every one, as only dangerous people are likely to be tasered, are we also accepting that every one will react the same way and hit people, the first time
err .. no? I don't understand this post.
You don't understand that everyone has a first time with taser?
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:41am
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:39am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am There will always be a first time for every one, as only dangerous people are likely to be tasered, are we also accepting that every one will react the same way and hit people, the first time
err .. no? I don't understand this post.
You don't understand that everyone has a first time with taser?
Again ... no? (i.e. I think I do understand that. Beware double negatives!)

(Has anyone said everyone reacts the same way to a specific stressful situation? )
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:54am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:41am
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:39am
err .. no? I don't understand this post.
You don't understand that everyone has a first time with taser?
Again ... no? (i.e. I think I do understand that. Beware double negatives!)

(Has anyone said everyone reacts the same way to a specific stressful situation? )
Most people react much the same way in stressful situations. That being fight, flight or freeze. Training of people for stressful situations is based around eliminating those responce it doesn't really need to be situation specific for that training to work, so the fact she hadn't used a taser isn't that important to her response.

But to answer the question it's probably safe to say a third of people react the same way unless they have been trained. Which she had, so that makes it less excusable than for most of us.


As a society we generaly have a down on hitting people just because you are stressed. It's considered poor impulse control and will see you out of most jobs very quickly
Last edited by jois on 30 Sep 2022, 10:18am, edited 1 time in total.
pwa
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am

....To some extent she is a victim of circumstances, if the other cop hadn't killed the guy, no mention of this would have occurred and she would be able to carry on hitting defenceless suspects when ever she felt like it with impunity[/b]
Just on that one point, we know the man was on the ground. Do we know that he was unconscious, and therefore defenceless? If he was on the ground and unable to move, he would be defenceless. If he was on the ground and still struggling, with a potential for breaking free and attacking the officers, he would not have seemed defenceless to those whose safety would be compromised. Do we know the details around that, because it is crucial to an understanding of how this played out?

Was there bodycam footage?
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

It was only Monk that deployed a taser in this incident.
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

pwa wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:16am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am

....To some extent she is a victim of circumstances, if the other cop hadn't killed the guy, no mention of this would have occurred and she would be able to carry on hitting defenceless suspects when ever she felt like it with impunity[/b]
Just on that one point, we know the man was on the ground. Do we know that he was unconscious, and therefore defenceless? If he was on the ground and unable to move, he would be defenceless. If he was on the ground and still struggling, with a potential for breaking free and attacking the officers, he would not have seemed defenceless to those whose safety would be compromised. Do we know the details around that, because it is crucial to an understanding of how this played out?

Was there bodycam footage?
I'm not sure that being unconscious is the definition of being unable to defend yourself and therefore " defenceless"

That said defending yourselve against a police officer attacking you is likely to see you charged with either assualt or resisting arrest or both. Possibly better than being killed but not great
pwa
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:19am
pwa wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:16am
jois wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 9:25am

....To some extent she is a victim of circumstances, if the other cop hadn't killed the guy, no mention of this would have occurred and she would be able to carry on hitting defenceless suspects when ever she felt like it with impunity[/b]
Just on that one point, we know the man was on the ground. Do we know that he was unconscious, and therefore defenceless? If he was on the ground and unable to move, he would be defenceless. If he was on the ground and still struggling, with a potential for breaking free and attacking the officers, he would not have seemed defenceless to those whose safety would be compromised. Do we know the details around that, because it is crucial to an understanding of how this played out?

Was there bodycam footage?
I'm not sure that being unconscious is the definition of being unable to defend yourself and therefore " defenceless"
It is one form of being defenceless. Another might be if he had been handcuffed. But if, at the other extreme, he were struggling to break free, and in danger of succeeding, he would still be a threat. I don't know, and I suspect you don't either, where on this spectrum they were at the time the baton was used. Bodycam footage would establish that. I would hope that the jury had access to bodycam footage and based their judgement on more detailed information than we have at the moment.
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