Grease

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honesty
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Grease

Post by honesty »

Can anyone help with what I thought was a simple question, but my Google-fu failed to get me an answer.

What’s the difference between the red TF2 weldlite grease, and the white lithium weldlite grease and where should I use either? I have the red stuff but whoever made my bike the first time seems to have liberally used the white stuff everywhere (including on the freehub/cassette interface)
alexnharvey
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Re: Grease

Post by alexnharvey »

I think the white grease has zinc oxide in it whereas the red does not. Is the red also made with a synthetic base oil whereas the white is mineral oil based? If so many will regard the synthetic one as a better grease, although that is only a rule of thumb: there are many mineral oil based greases that are good for bikes. Whenever I find a bike with white grease it tends to be orange due to rust, but of course it may be poor servicing over many years that leads to this rather than a fault of the grease itself. Nevertheless, i don't buy it or use it on my bikes.

As you found it is hard to find a clear explanation of the differences, as both are referred to as weldtite TF2 grease.

Since they are both lithium based greases they should be compatible. I do not think they're much different in terms of viscosity, so there is not much difference in terms of where you would use them.

I prefer to use calcium greases which have some molybdenum disulfide or graphite as a solid lubricant and buy them in tubs or cartridges as these are much cheaper than buying greases that are marketed for the bicycle consumer.
jois
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Re: Grease

Post by jois »

honesty wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 8:28am Can anyone help with what I thought was a simple question, but my Google-fu failed to get me an answer.

What’s the difference between the red TF2 weldlite grease, and the white lithium weldlite grease and where should I use either? I have the red stuff but whoever made my bike the first time seems to have liberally used the white stuff everywhere (including on the freehub/cassette interface)
I wouldnt worry about it at all on a bicycle, I've just finished a tin of white bearing grease I bought in 1977 it's been used on everything I felt inclined to grease, cars, motorbikes boats, push bikes,the next tin will last longer than me, may put it in my will
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Paulkentuk
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Re: Grease

Post by Paulkentuk »

For general lubrication, I've always used the same grease for my bicycles as I've used for motorcycle maintenance - Castrol LM.

Bushes etc, I might use Lithium grease, and I use Copaslip on bolt threads that are unlikely to be unscrewed for years.

I use Scottoil for lubing the chain, and use the 'red' one for that as its stickier !
jois
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Re: Grease

Post by jois »

Paulkentuk wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 10:23am For general lubrication, I've always used the same grease for my bicycles as I've used for motorcycle maintenance - Castrol LM.

Bushes etc, I might use Lithium grease, and I use Copaslip on bolt threads that are unlikely to be unscrewed for years.

I use Scottoil for lubing the chain, and use the 'red' one for that as its stickier !
Copper slip doesn't seem to be any better than grease, that is you can always get a greased bolt out in my exsperiance. Or gasket goo if your keen on it both staying put and easy to get out
Valbrona
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Re: Grease

Post by Valbrona »

You only need grease in bearings. Use a copper anti-seize compound on all threaded assemblies ... and that's it.
I should coco.
rjb
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Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: Grease

Post by rjb »

Castrol LM grease isn't the best for bike bearings. OK if nothing else available. See here from CJ

CJ
Re: what type of grease
Post 4 Aug 2011, 3:16pm

Gerch wrote:
I am going to strip my bike down and give it a good grease up, I have some Castrol LM grease is this ok? or should I use bike specific grease?

Castrol LM is intended for bearings that spin faster and are not as heavily stressed as cycle bearings, where the loads may be smaller but so are the balls only more so, hence the stress. It's better than letting them run dry, but not a lot better. The base oil constituent is not sufficiently viscous to cushion the concentrated contact of the ball, resulting in premature pitting of races. Castrol LM also has merely average sealing performance, since it's intended for use in bearings that have much more effective contact seals than there's space for in bike components. So water will also get in too easily - and that's the end of any bearing.

Like the man said, read that thread.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
jois
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Re: Grease

Post by jois »

rjb wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 1:43pm Castrol LM grease isn't the best for bike bearings. OK if nothing else available. See here from CJ

CJ
Re: what type of grease
Post 4 Aug 2011, 3:16pm

Gerch wrote:
I am going to strip my bike down and give it a good grease up, I have some Castrol LM grease is this ok? or should I use bike specific grease?

Castrol LM is intended for bearings that spin faster and are not as heavily stressed as cycle bearings, where the loads may be smaller but so are the balls only more so, hence the stress. It's better than letting them run dry, but not a lot better. The base oil constituent is not sufficiently viscous to cushion the concentrated contact of the ball, resulting in premature pitting of races. Castrol LM also has merely average sealing performance, since it's intended for use in bearings that have much more effective contact seals than there's space for in bike components. So water will also get in too easily - and that's the end of any bearing.

Like the man said, read that thread.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
Water won't wash grease out. Put some grease on something and put it in water and try it.you can spash it about a bit as well,

Nor is the greae providing cushioning it proving lubrication or more accurately stopping two pieces of metal touching, which it does very well.

There a lot of nonsense put round by people I'm assuming want to sell you things you don't need.
The reverse is true lm grease is complete over kill and you could get by with lard or sewing machine oil or
Jdsk
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Re: Grease

Post by Jdsk »

honesty wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 8:28am ...
What’s the difference between the red TF2 weldlite grease, and the white lithium weldlite grease and where should I use either? I have the red stuff but whoever made my bike the first time seems to have liberally used the white stuff everywhere (including on the freehub/cassette interface)
If I understand correctly the red stuff contains Teflon and the white stuff doesn't. Does it say that on the container of the red stuff?

The fundamental problem with choosing appropriate lubricants and similar is that the necessary trials simply haven't been done for most of the problems that we face because there are too many combinations: components, use cases and slippery stuff. So we fall back on general properties of families of lubricants and on authorities. I find the most helpful authorities to be Sheldon Brown, Park Tool Repair Help, and Brucey's advice in the archives.

In the absence of any evidence that the Teflon brings any benefits and its *persistence in the environment I'd avoid it.

Jonathan

* Cue usual whataboutery concerning other sources of environmental pollution?
Norman H
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Re: Grease

Post by Norman H »

jois wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 1:53pm

Water won't wash grease out. Put some grease on something and put it in water and try it.you can spash it about a bit as well,

Nor is the greae providing cushioning it proving lubrication or more accurately stopping two pieces of metal touching, which it does very well.

There a lot of nonsense put round by people I'm assuming want to sell you things you don't need.
The reverse is true lm grease is complete over kill and you could get by with lard or sewing machine oil or
It's a bit more complicated than that.

viewtopic.php?t=121287
Stevek76
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Re: Grease

Post by Stevek76 »

Yep that's a good thread from brucey.

Not sure it answers the red vs white tf2 question, but I'm not sure that's answerable unless someones done some tests, zinc oxide is usually added to increase water resistance.

Also i wonder what the quantifiable difference between something like Castrol LM and a more EP aimed grease actually is!
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
jois
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Re: Grease

Post by jois »

Norman H wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 3:36pm
jois wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 1:53pm

Water won't wash grease out. Put some grease on something and put it in water and try it.you can spash it about a bit as well,

Nor is the greae providing cushioning it proving lubrication or more accurately stopping two pieces of metal touching, which it does very well.

There a lot of nonsense put round by people I'm assuming want to sell you things you don't need.
The reverse is true lm grease is complete over kill and you could get by with lard or sewing machine oil or
It's a bit more complicated than that.

viewtopic.php?t=121287
Not much more, it does exactly the same job on any bearing and just as well, I'm aware people get obsessive about things that make no material difference, I do myself sometimes, just not over things as mundane as greasing wheel bearings.
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honesty
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Re: Grease

Post by honesty »

Gone down the rabbit hole of bike maintenance today. Took my crankset out and the shaft was liberally smeared with white grease. Isn’t this completely pointless? Surely it’s just the bearings/cup threads that need greasing?

Follow up question. If I wanted to re-grease the bb bearings do I need to remove the bb cups?
jois
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Re: Grease

Post by jois »

honesty wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 5:19pm Gone down the rabbit hole of bike maintenance today. Took my crankset out and the shaft was liberally smeared with white grease. Isn’t this completely pointless? Surely it’s just the bearings/cup threads that need greasing?

Follow up question. If I wanted to re-grease the bb bearings do I need to remove the bb cups?
If you can see the bearings just stick some grease in,,
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Cugel
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Re: Grease

Post by Cugel »

jois wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 4:11pm
Norman H wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 3:36pm
jois wrote: 1 Oct 2022, 1:53pm

Water won't wash grease out. Put some grease on something and put it in water and try it.you can spash it about a bit as well,

Nor is the greae providing cushioning it proving lubrication or more accurately stopping two pieces of metal touching, which it does very well.

There a lot of nonsense put round by people I'm assuming want to sell you things you don't need.
The reverse is true lm grease is complete over kill and you could get by with lard or sewing machine oil or
It's a bit more complicated than that.

viewtopic.php?t=121287
Not much more, it does exactly the same job on any bearing and just as well, I'm aware people get obsessive about things that make no material difference, I do myself sometimes, just not over things as mundane as greasing wheel bearings.
Some things are just a matter of opinion whilst others are based on experience, with a third category based on "harder" or more objective data. Personally I feel a mix of the second & third is better than a mix of the first and second (which is what you seem to be offering in your grease-opinion). The problem with the latter is that the experience involved may be very limited - as when a fellow has used only one grease without trying any of the hundreds of others.

So .... just so you don't have to, I summarise here a Hambini web page, with a link to what seems to be a better choice as an all purpose bicycle grease.

The grease recommended is described here, with a handy pdf data sheet to download should one want it. Of course, the data sheet is from the manufacturer but seems to be something far less inclined to the hyperbole that an out-and-out advert would suffer from:

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for ... th-shc-007

It's available in several grades of viscosity. (See below re NLGI numbers).

**********
The Hambini take-aways are:

A bearing grease is different from an anti-seize grease, with the former meant to lubricate moving parts that interface under pressure and the latter serving only to prevent thread lock-ups from galling and the like. Anti-seize greases shouldn't be used in bearings or other moving parts as they tend to contain stuff (like copper) that'll cause abrasion.

Stuff used to lubricate moving parts needs to be chosen based on a standard of viscosity but also on having a degree of resistance to water ingress & damage. In effect, the lowest degree of viscosity (becoming an oil liquid when heated/pressured by use) gives ideal lubrication but would need constant renewal, especially if water got involved. A more practical viscosity results in a grease with some solidity in use but only a minimum; and with ingredients providing a degree of resistance to being diluted or otherwise quickly degraded by water. Ingredients to provide extra-slipperiness (such as teflon) can help in reducing the stiffness of the grease needed as they remain on the bearing surfaces for a while when most of the grease has liquified and departed.

The viscosity measurement of a grease is expressed as its the NLGI number, with 000 being near liquid, 1 being soft and 3 being firm. Choose a grease with an NLGI number for the purpose in a bike bearing - and recognising a trade-off between time it'll last in the bearing against how much drag on the bearing it'll cause in use. Firm - more drag but less maintenance; soft - minimum drag but much more maintenance (renewal).

An NLGI of between 1 and 2 is recommended as an all-purpose grease for bicycles.

Any grease should be used sparingly in bearings, to take up around one third of the air space within the bearing race parts. Packing in grease is said to increase the internal friction (and heat) generated "exponentially" (meaning only "at an ever-increasing rate"). Fully-packed bearing will result in a very sluggish bearing performance, as in stopping the wheel freely rotating on a bike after just a small number of revolutions, perhaps less than one.

**********
Do the greases mentioned by the OP have their NLGI numbers published? That might be a starting point in considering their suitability for various bike bearings.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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