Dallian Atkinson aquittal

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mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

Are we in Alice's Wonderland? Did Liz Tr*ss replace our legal system while we were distracted by The Fiscal Event??

Bizarre ...
Tangled Metal
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

I've expressed interest in ex cop's views on this as I understand it n there is at least one on here. But perhaps it might be interesting to hear from a former senior black police officer on this case and others.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-atkinson

I think he makes a few good points but I do not know enough about possible effects of institutional racism to really be sure.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 2:42pm Are we in Alice's Wonderland? Did Liz Tr*ss replace our legal system while we were distracted by The Fiscal Event??

Bizarre ...
What is bizarre exactly in your opinion? I don't follow your reasoning to shoe horn Truss into this thread.
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

Tangled Metal wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 2:39pm
jois wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:41pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Sep 2022, 5:36pm Perhaps an ex police officer could confirm whether there are zones of the body the police are trained to hit and zones not to hit due to the high chance of a serious outcome for the receiver of such a strike?

I've heard these zones of the body that are not supposed to be struck with a baton called red zones. The head AIUI was one such red zone. If true then surely she's going to be an ex copper soon?

BTW I would point out that even a 6 month rookie is not a general member of the population but a trained, if not fully signed off, police officer. I do not know what the training is but all the trained police officers I know had a degree of confidence and presence to them that I always put down to training.

As to restraint I used to know a guy who trained police in unarmed restraint techniques. Also not a John Q public skillset.
Has it been establish she hit him on the head, there was some dispute a few posts back.

Not an excopper, but know they are not supposed to go for the head, giving circumstances of course, general the thigh is the main target when standing, I'm not sure there is any guidance on where best to hit someone laying down probably didn't think it was required
I've edited it to clarify point about red zones. JDSK has posted an image showing red zones for baton strikes.

JDSK also posted links to the findings of the court case. What I find interesting was the final taser shot where the male police officer held the current flowing for 33s when 10s is sufficient to cause the muscle spasms that immobilise the recipient. Namely 33s was excessive and beyond that which was needed to immobilise. How does that tie in with the female officer's assertion that she believed he was trying to get up and that's why she struck him? Either the science behind tasers is wrong or she had the inability to identify when a person is immobilised or she struck despite knowing he was immobile. That I don't understand.

Whatever the situation I do not trust her as a front line police officer. I'm a white male so probably not going to be in the position of relying on her judgement as to whether I get hit or not.

One thing I read in a local rag for the area was that they were in a relationship. Setting aside the tabloid nature of that snippet of gossip, could that have had any influence on behaviour? I am certain my judgement won't be completely clinical if my partner was in harm's way.
I wouldnt doubt their ability to strike people on an equal opertunity basis
pete75
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:57am
pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am
mattheus wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:38am
Flippin' eck, you're hard to please! What more pressing circumstances do you envisage?

The Russians releasing vicious hornets at a Lord's Test Match?
A super-villian about to release 3,250 nuclear missiles against every major population centre?
Bad guy about to shoot John Wick's dog??
Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really. Her defence was, to put it bluntly, she acted from cowardice.
jois says otherwise, take it up with her.

(the rest of your post is entirely subjective - but do remember this:
The taser however appeared to have no effect upon Mr. Atkinson and he continued
to advance and then went back to the door of number 22. Because of your
concerns for whoever was inside number 22 you deployed the taser for a
second time. Again that had no effect upon Mr. Atkinson who then
smashed the glass in the front door of number 22 with his fist.


From the judge's sentencing remarks. Which you've read, I assume?
)
Yes. You've conveniently left out the bit about the third tasering which collpased him to the ground, along with the two kicks to the head.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
slowster
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by slowster »

pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really.
Where in the reports does it state that she struck Atkinson with her baton *after* Monk had kicked him in the head?
pete75
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

slowster wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:09pm
pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really.
Where in the reports does it state that she struck Atkinson with her baton *after* Monk had kicked him in the head?
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:00am
slowster wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:09pm
pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really.
Where in the reports does it state that she struck Atkinson with her baton *after* Monk had kicked him in the head?
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
Why? A baton is a hollow object, not designed to smash skulls. It isn't an iron bar. And did she actually hit his head anyway? It would normally be usedon areas like the arms, to create enough pain to induce compliance in someone resisting being handcuffed. If the autopsy concluded that the baton did not contribute to the cause of death, surely we ought to accept that.

What does bother me about the investigation is the lack of boycam footage. That would have told us so much more about the reality of what happened.
slowster
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by slowster »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:00am
slowster wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:09pm
pete75 wrote: 30 Sep 2022, 10:50am Well the chap had had been tasered three times and kicked in the head at least twice. Anymore force wasn't reasonable really.
Where in the reports does it state that she struck Atkinson with her baton *after* Monk had kicked him in the head?
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
What coroner's report?
pete75
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

slowster wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 6:50am
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:00am
slowster wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:09pm
Where in the reports does it state that she struck Atkinson with her baton *after* Monk had kicked him in the head?
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
What coroner's report?
The report produced by whoever carried out the post mortem, frequently quoted in court and in the judges summing up.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Jdsk »

From what I can tell the inquest is adjourned.

From the IOPC statement on 17 August 2016:
"A post mortem was held yesterday (Wednesday 17 August) and the cause of death was inconclusive. Further tests will be carried out. The IPCC is liaising with HM Coroner."
https://policeconduct.gov.uk/news/updat ... -his-death

There are references in press reports to "experts" and "an expert pathologist" after that date. I think that those are probably expert witnesses in the three criminal trials.

Jonathan
pete75
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:29am
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:00am
slowster wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:09pm
Where in the reports does it state that she struck Atkinson with her baton *after* Monk had kicked him in the head?
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
Why? A baton is a hollow object, not designed to smash skulls. It isn't an iron bar. And did she actually hit his head anyway? It would normally be usedon areas like the arms, to create enough pain to induce compliance in someone resisting being handcuffed. If the autopsy concluded that the baton did not contribute to the cause of death, surely we ought to accept that.

What does bother me about the investigation is the lack of boycam footage. That would have told us so much more about the reality of what happened.
There's also the fact that the two officers were "romantically involved". One of them had, some years previously, been before a disciplinary tribunal for gross misconduct. He was given a final written warning. Maybe he should have been sacked then. On joining the police he'd failed to disclose two police cautions, one for theft from an employer and one for drunkenness.
Pain to induce compliance? Isn't that torture?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
slowster
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by slowster »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 11:21am The report produced by whoever carried out the post mortem, frequently quoted in court and in the judges summing up.
The reports mentioned in the judge's summing up were those of multiple expert medical witnesses. There is no mention in that document of whether the use of the baton contributed to the cause of death.
mattheus
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 11:58am
- There's also the fact that the two officers were "romantically involved".

- Pain to induce compliance? Isn't that torture?
- [What a quaint phrase!] And this is important, because ... ?

- Are you having a laugh?? Jois has already tried this line of accusation, but again: do you think anyone else in the real world would describe subduing a violent dangerous man as "torture"??
jois
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by jois »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 11:58am
pwa wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:29am
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:00am
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
Why? A baton is a hollow object, not designed to smash skulls. It isn't an iron bar. And did she actually hit his head anyway? It would normally be usedon areas like the arms, to create enough pain to induce compliance in someone resisting being handcuffed. If the autopsy concluded that the baton did not contribute to the cause of death, surely we ought to accept that.

What does bother me about the investigation is the lack of boycam footage. That would have told us so much more about the reality of what happened.
There's also the fact that the two officers were "romantically involved". One of them had, some years previously, been before a disciplinary tribunal for gross misconduct. He was given a final written warning. Maybe he should have been sacked then. On joining the police he'd failed to disclose two police cautions, one for theft from an employer and one for drunkenness.
Pain to induce compliance? Isn't that torture?
Well it is, with in certain bounds it's called compliance techniques and judged acceptable,

If you are not cooperating, as well as just plain resisting, they can hit you with a baton, punch you repeatly in the face or any other of quite a few things and call it a distraction strike.the law is very Woolly when it comes to when compliance become torture .

The other thing to bear in mind is that excessive force used in their duty, it, is considered misconduct rather than criminal and is investigated as such, save a few really high profile examples the worse punishment they will face is a misconduct hearing rather than a court


A criminal conviction would mean they go, words of advice means they stay on the books and they haven't wasted a ton of money training someone who is no longer employable.

They are not above using "compliance" to extract answers to questions usualy by twisting the handcuffs resulting in soft tissue, tendon and nerve damage on occasions, that is most definely torture,

Watched a vid a couple of weeks ago, were they unlawfully detained a guy, put him in a van and then twisted the handcuffs to make him answer questions, which he didn't have to answer and didn't ,resulting in more twisting, repeat. Being gobby and insisting on a solicitor is not a reasonable excuse for compliance techniques

That they did this whilst knowing they were being filmed, makes you wonder what they would do other wise.

The guy got 3.5k in compensation, I assume the policeman is still serving ?
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