Better bicycle tools

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by Cugel »

slowster wrote: 17 Sep 2022, 11:06pm
Cugel wrote: 17 Sep 2022, 6:00pm One tool at a time, then ....
Before even buying one tool, for tools like cassette/Centrelock disc lockring tools and bottom bracket tools I suggest you consider the pros and cons of tools with integral handles vs. those designed to be used with torque wrenches, large sockets and/or large adjustable spanners.

I would not get tools with handles because:

- they don't allow a torque wrench to be used
- it's usually possible to choose separate tools which can be firmly held in place with a QR skewer to stop them camming out
- separate tools give better options with a stuck or seized BB or lockring, e.g. adjustable spanners with a longer handle (or handle extended with a metal tube) or a breaker bar.

If you get separate tools, it makes sense where possible to choose ones which use the same drive and eternal hex sizes, so that you do not need multiple sockets, adapters, or both 3/8" and 1/2" torque wrenches, breaker bars etc. .......
That all sounds like very good advice. Those tools I have for bike work that have built-in handles rarely have those handles well-designed for their task of applying the necessary forces. They aren't offset so foul the gubbins in which the part is on when trying to loosen or tighten; they have a shape or edge that digs into the hand so that applied force is restricted by resultant discomfort in using them. And so forth.

These days, the issue of torque is more prominent, with lightweight or minimal-material designs needing careful spannering if the part isn't to break. I do have small and large torque wrenches that come with various included driving-socket sizes so I suppose the obvious thing is to look for tooling to fit them, as you and Jonathan suggest.

*********
One issue with such tools is that they come designed for use on a particular kind of bike part but their interface (of splines or other shape) to the bike part to be loosened or tightened is adopted for other kinds of bike parts. One must be careful, if both kinds of parts need working on, to make sure the tool will fit both.

For example, I have 20-spline tool with a 1/2" drive socket that's designed to loosen square taper bottom bracket cups but which, in theory, can also be used to loosen a 20-spline spider used between a Fazua FSA ISIS splined axle and various chaintings of different OLN dimensions. But the tool can't be used to loosen these spiders because the inner recess isn't large enough to take the ISIS axle end. It only has space to take a smaller square-taper axle end.

So I need a different version of this 20-spline driver with a much larger inner recess so it'll go over an ISIS axle end and still engage with the splines of the FSA-Fazua spiders. Happily Icetoolz seem to have one.

*********
Next tool for consideration - the chain whip.

I have a cheap one from the 30-quid bike toolbox and it does work .... but .... the chain links are fat (for 6 or 7-speed sprockets, probably) and the thing has an uncomfortable handle that's also difficult to hold on to the cassette properly. It's one of those where it becomes all too easy to slip and get a sprocket-tooth bite on your knuckles. I'm wondering if this differently-designed item is any better?
bbb-cassette-afnemer-t-rex-grip-11-speed-btl-122.jpg
I have a matching splined tool for the cassette lock ring but this too has a "bad" handle so perhaps I should also get a handleless version for use with the torque wrench?

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by PH »

Cassette removal - Do you have a vice?
It's a two tool job, they ought to be considered together. If you're using a vice, which is IMO the easiest method, then it's the chain tool applying the force, usual rules of leverage apply, the longer the better, or one where an extension tube can easily slip over the handle. If you're not using a vice, the whip should be holding the cassette and the leverage applied to whatever tool you're using in the locknut.
Chain whip slipping - use a zip tie, or bit of string or something else, to hold the chain in position, it isn't taking any strain just keeping it engaged. Some whips have a hole for that purpose.
I use a Park SR 2-3 and prefer the shaped end to the flat type.
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by slowster »

Cugel wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 8:43am One issue with such tools is that they come designed for use on a particular kind of bike part but their interface (of splines or other shape) to the bike part to be loosened or tightened is adopted for other kinds of bike parts. One must be careful, if both kinds of parts need working on, to make sure the tool will fit both.

For example, I have 20-spline tool with a 1/2" drive socket that's designed to loosen square taper bottom bracket cups but which, in theory, can also be used to loosen a 20-spline spider used between a Fazua FSA ISIS splined axle and various chaintings of different OLN dimensions. But the tool can't be used to loosen these spiders because the inner recess isn't large enough to take the ISIS axle end. It only has space to take a smaller square-taper axle end.

So I need a different version of this 20-spline driver with a much larger inner recess so it'll go over an ISIS axle end and still engage with the splines of the FSA-Fazua spiders. Happily Icetoolz seem to have one.
I think what you describe is quite common. With careful selection it might be possible to find the perfect tool that covers both/all uses, but I think that sometimes it is necessary to resign oneself to the likelihood of needing to buy more than one version of the same tool. If they all fit your existing torque wrench(es)/sockets etc., that at least limits the extra cost of the additional tools. This applies in particular to Centrelock disc lockrings, which may use the Shimano cassette lockring fitting or the externally notched Hollowtech II BB tool fitting:

- Some cassette lockring tools appear to be incompatible with Centrelock disc lockrings on a thru-axle hub (see https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topi ... ool-again/.

- The externally notched type Centrelock lockrings are much shallower than a Hollowtech II BB cup, and some manufacturers' Hollowtech II BB tools have splines which stop short of the mating face of the tool, resulting in poor tool engagement. The Icetoolz one seems to be an example of this, since the splines appear to be bevelled inwards. This will matter more with tools which cannot be held in place by a QR skewer or threaded rod/nut and washers.
Cugel wrote: 17 Sep 2022, 6:00pm The tool employed to take off and put in the bottom bracket cups/bearings such as Shimano's hollowtech and FSA's megaexo: a long handle with a circular spanner end having 16 slightly rounded inward facing teeth that engage with matching notches around the BB cup/bearing so it can be screwed in or out of threaded bicycle BB shells.

Such a tool can also be used to take off or put on the lock ring holding disc rotors in place on the wheel hubs.
There are three standards for 16 notch BB cups - 41mm/42mm, 44mm/45mm and 49mm. I don't know which of those are used for Centrelock disc lockrings. If you need a tool other than the 44mm/45mm size, the Park Tool versions do not have external hex flats, but are internally threaded to take an M8(?) rod which is held in place on the other side of the BB (and I presume the other side of a thru-axle). Park Tool make a specific tool comprising the threaded rod and a spring, but it is not cheap and I suspect a DIY version would suffice.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by Cugel »

A small tranche of tools is now gathering itself in the bags of various postmen and will hopefully soon be here.

The next tool-related issue for me, then, is: how to store them all; and the various bike bit spares. At present, my bike tools are scattered about in various drawers, shelves, niches, nooks and even crannies.

There are various tool boxes and cases that can be bought supposedly for bicycle tools, although they look like generic tool boxes/cabinets to me. However, being a woodworker as well as a cyclist, I thought I'd make a tool cabinet for the bike tools. After all, I've made several for the woodworking tools .....

But I don't have a bike shed for doing maintenance, only for storing. I tend to do maintenance outside next to a large outside dining table that serves as a bench. A single too cabinet for all the bike tools and spares might be rather cumbersome to get in and out. So .....

Anyone any suggestions or models for bike tool storage boxes that can be easily transported - perhaps even integrated into a larger whole from which various sub-carcases could be taken for specific bike maintenance tasks (e.g. a wheel & tyre box; a transmission box; a brake box)? All suggestions, pics or plans welcome.

************
Meanwhile, I'm looking at a refurb of my wheel and tyre tools, not least because all the wheels I now use apart from one set appear to use monolithic wheel bearings rather than cup&cone style designs; and I have no bearing remover/installer for wheels, only a generic one for bottom bracket direct-fit bearings. Then there are the various alternatives for dealing with tubeless tyres.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by Jdsk »

Cugel wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 1:36pm ...
Anyone any suggestions or models for bike tool storage boxes that can be easily transported - perhaps even integrated into a larger whole from which various sub-carcases could be taken for specific bike maintenance tasks (e.g. a wheel & tyre box; a transmission box; a brake box)? All suggestions, pics or plans welcome.
...
My main tool storage is a wheeled cabinet from Halfords. Treat yourself to one with drawers that run on ball bearings. Cycling UK discount and frequent sales.

Small bits go in compartment boxes with hinged lids. Don't overload them and label immediately.

Bigger bits and specific tools go in bigger cases with hinged lids. Where tools need wrenches etc to adjust them or swap parts then I usually keep them in the same box. This matters more for trips than when working at home!
Currently lots of Stanley SortMasters.
https://www.stanleytools.co.uk/search/sortmaster

And for bike bits I've recently bought a collection of open-topped Euro Plastic stacking boxes from Solent Plastic. Excellent.
https://www.solentplastics.co.uk/stacki ... ontainers/

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 2:02pmMy main tool storage is a wheeled cabinet from Halfords. Treat yourself to one with drawers that run on ball bearings. Cycling UK discount and frequent sales.
Now 20% off, I've seen more:
https://www.halfords.com/great-offers/d ... l-storage/

NB Club discounts often still work for in-store purchases on top of these offers.

Jonathan
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by Cugel »

Jdsk wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 6:30pm
Jdsk wrote: 21 Sep 2022, 2:02pmMy main tool storage is a wheeled cabinet from Halfords. Treat yourself to one with drawers that run on ball bearings. Cycling UK discount and frequent sales.
Now 20% off, I've seen more:
https://www.halfords.com/great-offers/d ... l-storage/

NB Club discounts often still work for in-store purchases on top of these offers.

Jonathan
Since the bicycle tools were getting a review, refresh and rejection of some older tools no longer needed or wanted, I decided I ought to do the same with the various storage boxes I have. Most were got for woodworking purposes but really they're generic storers, with various configurations within various shapes and sizes of container.

After a rationalisation of the woodworking tools, knobs, hinges, screws, sandpapers and all the rest I ended up with two empty Festool boxes rather like those old fashioned steel boxes with a top handle that open on a cantilever arrangement to reveal 4 or 6 trays. The festool boxes have 4 trays when opened but are rather larger in volume than the steel items. They also have many internal dividers and sub-containers.

So far, all the tools (new, retained but not rejected) have gone in one Festool container with all the spare parts in another. The new tools are (so far) mostly the smaller ones needed to deal with nuts, bolts, screws, cables, lock rings and so forth. The handle-per-tool items have been replaced, as per advice given up the thread, with small items that can be turned with a torque wrench, since most of the items they turn now state the required torque to keep 'em in place without crushing whatever they retain or fasten.

I might get that fancy chain whip that isn't so much like a whip (see pic in a previous post) and possibly a better gubbins to level-check and squirt in the sticky stuff that goes into tubeless tyres. I'm also thinking about some wheel bearing extractor/squish-in tools as all the wheels I use now have cartridge bearings rather than cup & cone.

I already have a BB squisher-in for press-fit bearings that go into two Trek bikes but the knock-'em-out with a flared metal stick tool will probably be replaced by a proper cartridge bearing puller that works via a bolt and special nut threaded through a BB shell roundel. It's an alarming experience to have to bash your press fit bearings out of a carbon BB with a big hammer and a metal stick!

**************
When the toolset is fully refurbed and in the Festool boxes, I'll post some pics - probably a week or two yet.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by slowster »

Cugel wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:38pm I might get that fancy chain whip that isn't so much like a whip (see pic in a previous post)
In my experience chain whips that have a handle constructed of flat plate metal (even if they have a moulded grip) are inferior to those with a tubular metal handle. All the better chain whips have tubular metal handles, e.g. 531colin's one to which I provided a link above, the Park Tool SR-2.3, and the Abbey Bike Tools chain whip. Tubular handles are more comfortable to grip and make it easier to keep the tool in the same plane as the sprocket around which the chain has been looped (including if a scaffold pole or similar is used to extend the handle, as shown in one of 531colin's photographs in the link above).

With a flat plate handled chain whip I find that when applying a lot of force/weight the handle wants to twist/move outwards at an angle to the plane of the sprocket. The pliers design of the BBB tool might not be prone to that in the way that conventional chain whips are, but I remain sceptical of the design. Moreover the handle of the BBB tool is too short (compare with 531colin's chain tool, and the Park Tool SR-2.3).
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by Cugel »

slowster wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 9:35pm
Cugel wrote: 2 Oct 2022, 7:38pm I might get that fancy chain whip that isn't so much like a whip (see pic in a previous post)
In my experience chain whips that have a handle constructed of flat plate metal (even if they have a moulded grip) are inferior to those with a tubular metal handle. All the better chain whips have tubular metal handles, e.g. 531colin's one to which I provided a link above, the Park Tool SR-2.3, and the Abbey Bike Tools chain whip. Tubular handles are more comfortable to grip and make it easier to keep the tool in the same plane as the sprocket around which the chain has been looped (including if a scaffold pole or similar is used to extend the handle, as shown in one of 531colin's photographs in the link above).

With a flat plate handled chain whip I find that when applying a lot of force/weight the handle wants to twist/move outwards at an angle to the plane of the sprocket. The pliers design of the BBB tool might not be prone to that in the way that conventional chain whips are, but I remain sceptical of the design. Moreover the handle of the BBB tool is too short (compare with 531colin's chain tool, and the Park Tool SR-2.3).
It's certainly the case that a lot of handled tools meant to apply a torque of 40-50Nm are a poor design for the task - flat handles that are also too short and have no offset of the handle to the gripping part to allow a firmer grip and pull/push without the risk of the knuckles getting bitten by a sharp bike part.

One solution would be to amend the tool, which would mean fashioning a round handle that's also extended; and bending the tool handle a tad near the gripping end to provide an offset. I could do the first two easily enough with woodworking tools, attaching two half-round beech dowels to either side of the handle via rivets then shaping them to provide a smooth and extended round handle. Making the offset by bending the handle is more risky as who knows the condition of the metal in the handle? Is it malleable or brittle? That is, will it snap if bending is attempted? Could one heat it to make it more malleable without making it so soft it collapses in use?

Another option is to use the small gripping tool part attached by a 1/2 socket or similar with an extending handle of the sort used to take off car wheel nuts. Add a universal joint between the two and that will also give as much offset of the handle as wanted.

I'm going to try the latter approach but using the larger torque wrench I have with a universal joint providing the offset. But the torque wrench doesn't really have a long enough handle to apply immense torques (10-80 Nm being its supposed range .... with a 12 inch handle).

I'll also try the former method (rounded & extended beech handle on an existing flat handled tool) just for fun.

**********
The chain whip though ..... I like the theory of the two-fixed-chain-parts design as it looks as though it should be easier to keep it in place ...... But are there any users out there who can say that this theory actually works in practice?

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by jois »

Cugel wrote: 16 Sep 2022, 8:27pm The shed has numerous tools in it useful for working on bicycles, many of them being useful for all sorts of other kinds of jobs. Those tools used on the bikes that I've collected over the years are of varying quality but, typically, the bicycle-specific tools tend to be of the cheaper sort as such specialist tools tend to get used far less than more general purpose tools.

Just recently I've been doing a serious overall of one bike after another, in preparation for selling four bikes that have been usurped by e-bikes in our house. This has brought home the fact that some of my bike-specific tools are not as good as they ought to be - things like chain whips and cassette removers; BB servicing tools; a bearing press; and so forth.

Anyroadup, I thought I might give away my less than ideal bike tools and acquire better replacements. So I'm asking here for recommendations from more seasoned bicycle mechanics, for both brand names and individual specific tool types.

Incidentally, I've not been very impressed with some supposedly upmarket bike tools that seem to be sold at premium prices. One example is Park Tools, some of which are reasonable (but certainly not best) quality, some of which aren't; and all of which seem to cost rather more than they should.

German tools in general are often a favourite, of the better general purpose tools I have. But I'm happy also to buy far eastern or tools from any country if the quality is good.

Cugel
I just buy them as I need them, commonly because I can't find it or I've lent it someone who hasn't given it back or just because this one is different

I have a wilco tyre exhaust and bicycle place a couple of miles away that stocks what seem to be very good quality bike tools. They are not cheap15/20 quid each, if you went to buy a full set it would be a fair amount, but here and there as it's needed it's not to bad.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Better bicycle tools

Post by PH »

Tool cabinets on the cheap - have a look at office pedestal filing cabinets. They're not all the same, the one I have for tools has a steel box frame and heavy duty MDF drawers. Top is solid enough to bolt a vice too, though I haven't done so, or you could easily beef that up. The castors are good enough to wheel it around indoors, I'd replace them with something bigger if it was outside or on a rough garage floor.
Mine cost £15
Post Reply