Dallian Atkinson aquittal

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pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

mattheus wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:16pm
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 11:58am
- There's also the fact that the two officers were "romantically involved".

- Pain to induce compliance? Isn't that torture?
- [What a quaint phrase!] And this is important, because ... ?

- Are you having a laugh?? Jois has already tried this line of accusation, but again: do you think anyone else in the real world would describe subduing a violent dangerous man as "torture"??
Inflicting pain to make someone do what you want them to do is torture. There's a differenec between that and subduing someone.

Dalian Atkinson was not doing anything illegal. His actions and mindset were health problems not ones of criminal intent. As his brother said "“he was unwell and needed kindness and care rather than violence.”
Whatever you may think he didn't deserve to be brutally attacked and killed by police officers and what happened there was wrong. Other than in your own mind you can't justify what happened.

I took that phrase from an online report. If you like I'll rephrase. They were shagging each other - better?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 11:58am
pwa wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 5:29am
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:00am
Where in the reports does it say she struck Dallion Atkinson before Monk kicked him in the head?

The fact that the coroners report says the baton strikes did not contribute to his death means they happened after the tasering and kicks which were the causes of death. If they had happened before they would surely have contributed to it.
Why? A baton is a hollow object, not designed to smash skulls. It isn't an iron bar. And did she actually hit his head anyway? It would normally be usedon areas like the arms, to create enough pain to induce compliance in someone resisting being handcuffed. If the autopsy concluded that the baton did not contribute to the cause of death, surely we ought to accept that.

What does bother me about the investigation is the lack of boycam footage. That would have told us so much more about the reality of what happened.
There's also the fact that the two officers were "romantically involved". One of them had, some years previously, been before a disciplinary tribunal for gross misconduct. He was given a final written warning. Maybe he should have been sacked then. On joining the police he'd failed to disclose two police cautions, one for theft from an employer and one for drunkenness.
Pain to induce compliance? Isn't that torture?
It is legitimate if it is proportionate and is the only way to control someone who poses a threat. Police officers are required to put themselves in situations that the rest of us are advised to walk away from, so they need some weapons at their disposal. The question is, was a weapon used inappropriately. You think yes, but I'm not so sure.

The kicking to the head is a different matter.
mattheus
Posts: 5043
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:36pm
mattheus wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:16pm
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 11:58am
- There's also the fact that the two officers were "romantically involved".

- Pain to induce compliance? Isn't that torture?
- [What a quaint phrase!] And this is important, because ... ?

- Are you having a laugh?? Jois has already tried this line of accusation, but again: do you think anyone else in the real world would describe subduing a violent dangerous man as "torture"??
Inflicting pain to make someone do what you want them to do is torture. There's a differenec between that and subduing someone.

Dalian Atkinson was not doing anything illegal. His actions and mindset were health problems not ones of criminal intent. As his brother said "“he was unwell and needed kindness and care rather than violence.”
Whatever you may think he didn't deserve to be brutally attacked and killed by police officers and what happened there was wrong. Other than in your own mind you can't justify what happened.
"Mr. Atkinson had taken hold of his father by the throat
and told him that he had killed other members of the family and that he
intended to kill him"

His death was tragic, he didn't "deserve" anything, and it and shouldn't have happened. But it's wrong to say his own actions did not contribute.
And it's mad to say the police were torturing him.
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pwa »

Clearly Mr. Atkinson was ill, and his actions were the result of that illness. His actions were not criminal. Nobody has argued otherwise. But he was still a danger to those around him, and that danger had to be dealt with. The police were called in because he was behaving in a threatening manner. I'm glad I don't have to do that job.

Without bodycam footage and without having seen it for myself, I cannot say what exactly happened. But can I imagine a situation in which an agitated Mr. Atkinson was on the ground but not handcuffed, and looking like he might break free and hurt someone? Yes, that is plausible. Can I imagine a situation in which some use of the baton might reduce danger to others by forcing Mr. Atkinson to stay down? Yes, I can. Do I think kicking the man in the head was a reasonable way of subduing him? No.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

mattheus wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 4:11pm
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:36pm
mattheus wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:16pm
- [What a quaint phrase!] And this is important, because ... ?

- Are you having a laugh?? Jois has already tried this line of accusation, but again: do you think anyone else in the real world would describe subduing a violent dangerous man as "torture"??
Inflicting pain to make someone do what you want them to do is torture. There's a differenec between that and subduing someone.

Dalian Atkinson was not doing anything illegal. His actions and mindset were health problems not ones of criminal intent. As his brother said "“he was unwell and needed kindness and care rather than violence.”
Whatever you may think he didn't deserve to be brutally attacked and killed by police officers and what happened there was wrong. Other than in your own mind you can't justify what happened.
"Mr. Atkinson had taken hold of his father by the throat
and told him that he had killed other members of the family and that he
intended to kill him"

His death was tragic, he didn't "deserve" anything, and it and shouldn't have happened. But it's wrong to say his own actions did not contribute.
And it's mad to say the police were torturing him.
No they just killed him. That's beyond torture.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bonefishblues
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Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Bonefishblues »

pete75 wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:29am
mattheus wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 4:11pm
pete75 wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 12:36pm
Inflicting pain to make someone do what you want them to do is torture. There's a differenec between that and subduing someone.

Dalian Atkinson was not doing anything illegal. His actions and mindset were health problems not ones of criminal intent. As his brother said "“he was unwell and needed kindness and care rather than violence.”
Whatever you may think he didn't deserve to be brutally attacked and killed by police officers and what happened there was wrong. Other than in your own mind you can't justify what happened.
"Mr. Atkinson had taken hold of his father by the throat
and told him that he had killed other members of the family and that he
intended to kill him"

His death was tragic, he didn't "deserve" anything, and it and shouldn't have happened. But it's wrong to say his own actions did not contribute.
And it's mad to say the police were torturing him.
No they just killed him. That's beyond torture.
They didn't 'just kill him'

From my reading last week, in summary.

They attempted to restrain a man who was unstable and threatening.

He was Tasered 3 times, finally incapacitating him on the ground.

So far so good (bad, and sad), reasonable force was used in the circumstances and based on the honest belief of the officers that there was threat.

Whilst incapacitated he was kicked twice in the head with medium force by the officer who was, rightly, convicted of manslaughter. He was also hit with a baton by the other officer, who was subsequently acquitted by a Jury.

It's not clear that the kick caused Mr A's death, as he had other significant health issues and was a very sick man, but because of the assault, a conviction was appropriate in the circumstances.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

Bonefishblues wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 10:31am
pete75 wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:29am
mattheus wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 4:11pm
"Mr. Atkinson had taken hold of his father by the throat
and told him that he had killed other members of the family and that he
intended to kill him"

His death was tragic, he didn't "deserve" anything, and it and shouldn't have happened. But it's wrong to say his own actions did not contribute.
And it's mad to say the police were torturing him.
No they just killed him. That's beyond torture.
They didn't 'just kill him'

From my reading last week, in summary.

They attempted to restrain a man who was unstable and threatening.

He was Tasered 3 times, finally incapacitating him on the ground.

So far so good (bad, and sad), reasonable force was used in the circumstances and based on the honest belief of the officers that there was threat.

Whilst incapacitated he was kicked twice in the head with medium force by the officer who was, rightly, convicted of manslaughter. He was also hit with a baton by the other officer, who was subsequently acquitted by a Jury.

It's not clear that the kick caused Mr A's death, as he had other significant health issues and was a very sick man, but because of the assault, a conviction was appropriate in the circumstances.

Medium force? Medical reports said he was kicked so hard it left an imprint of the officer's boot laces.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bonefishblues
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Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Bonefishblues »

pete75 wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 11:40am
Bonefishblues wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 10:31am
pete75 wrote: 4 Oct 2022, 9:29am
No they just killed him. That's beyond torture.
They didn't 'just kill him'

From my reading last week, in summary.

They attempted to restrain a man who was unstable and threatening.

He was Tasered 3 times, finally incapacitating him on the ground.

So far so good (bad, and sad), reasonable force was used in the circumstances and based on the honest belief of the officers that there was threat.

Whilst incapacitated he was kicked twice in the head with medium force by the officer who was, rightly, convicted of manslaughter. He was also hit with a baton by the other officer, who was subsequently acquitted by a Jury.

It's not clear that the kick caused Mr A's death, as he had other significant health issues and was a very sick man, but because of the assault, a conviction was appropriate in the circumstances.

Medium force? Medical reports said he was kicked so hard it left an imprint of the officer's boot laces.
Quoting the Judge's comments in sentencing IIRC.

Presumably extreme or heavy force would have broken his skull - but I have no idea, that's just my speculation. I just quoted the facts as reported.
mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mattheus »

I heard he kicked him into next week.
mumbojumbo
Posts: 1525
Joined: 1 Aug 2018, 8:18pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by mumbojumbo »

There seems to be little consensus about this matter .However if I felt threatened my first reaction would be to move away from the source of that threat and use force only as a last resort. I do not think DA would have been swift after all the damage that had been inflicted on his person.Secondly her training should have prepared her and offered more options than using a truncheon.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

A baton is a hollow object, not designed to smash skulls.
A modern extending baton is 2 or 3 sections of steel or aluminium alloy (aircraft grades) often with a solid tip or centre section for better performance. It's typically 400 to 550mm in length fully extended and having a bending strength of 3000N. It is designed with sufficient strength to smash skulls.

I their early use they were intended to strike the head to give the recipient a stunned effect. However the force required for that is too close to that required to kill so it was stopped. Indeed more often a head strike would out the recipient in a state of shock where they would not feel pain as much and be enraged. That leaves the officer with no further possible action but to keep striking until successful, which led to many cases of excessive force. The better method is one or two strikes to the peroneal nerve just above the knee. That's straight out of millennia old martial arts. There's even Roman gladiatorial training images showing such locations to strike on the body I believe.

Anyway, a hollow baton with a solid end is easily capable of breaking a skull. Simple case of pivoting your wrist as you bring your arm down so the solid head is moving even faster than your arm. I think you can see it will kill!
Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

Then again there's some vulnerable parts of your skull that can be broken with a hand. Most modern martial arts will teach them but possibly at a higher level. I got taught a few one belt up but that's ju jitsu for you! Lol
Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

mumbojumbo wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 7:46pm There seems to be little consensus about this matter .However if I felt threatened my first reaction would be to move away from the source of that threat and use force only as a last resort. I do not think DA would have been swift after all the damage that had been inflicted on his person.Secondly her training should have prepared her and offered more options than using a truncheon.
Best technique of self self defence is to not be there! That's what our senior instructor told us on self defence nights. However police cannot do that because of their job. However they are better instructed in use of force and unarmed restraint. My old ju jitsu instructor made a living from many things but one was teaching self defence and unarmed restraint techniques to police officers of all levels. He learnt it from the army and a long period of time learning martial arts for a hobby. Needless to say he taught us a few of the things he taught police. Trust me very effective!

Anyway my point being police will have training to deal with this. If not there's possibly a holding pattern until backup gets there. I just feel the senior male officer didn't handle the situation well and the rookie too. One's in jail and the other could easily have been found guilty too I reckon. Either way I would not want her policing anywhere near me after that job that left one man with medically induced mental health issues dead. No coming back from that for him, I think professionally there should be no going back for those police officers.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by pete75 »

Tangled Metal wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 9:36pm
mumbojumbo wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 7:46pm There seems to be little consensus about this matter .However if I felt threatened my first reaction would be to move away from the source of that threat and use force only as a last resort. I do not think DA would have been swift after all the damage that had been inflicted on his person.Secondly her training should have prepared her and offered more options than using a truncheon.
Best technique of self self defence is to not be there! That's what our senior instructor told us on self defence nights. However police cannot do that because of their job. However they are better instructed in use of force and unarmed restraint. My old ju jitsu instructor made a living from many things but one was teaching self defence and unarmed restraint techniques to police officers of all levels. He learnt it from the army and a long period of time learning martial arts for a hobby. Needless to say he taught us a few of the things he taught police. Trust me very effective!

Anyway my point being police will have training to deal with this. If not there's possibly a holding pattern until backup gets there. I just feel the senior male officer didn't handle the situation well and the rookie too. One's in jail and the other could easily have been found guilty too I reckon. Either way I would not want her policing anywhere near me after that job that left one man with medically induced mental health issues dead. No coming back from that for him, I think professionally there should be no going back for those police officers.
The male officer had already been found guilty of gross misconduct sometime before this incident. Maybe that should have told them he wasn't really suitable materiel, but he was just given a written warning.
In most jobs a finding of gross misconduct merits instant dismissal.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Dallian Atkinson aquittal

Post by Tangled Metal »

Oh nothing surprises me anymore Ruth the police. A few years ago a friend was in a filter lane at a junction to turn right. Parked up, in neutral and with the handbrake on. A police officer in a high performance traffic car (subaru) was planning to take the same right hand turn at speed with sirens and lights on but looked towards a vehicle in the straight on lane so hit my friend's car hard enough to send it across the crossroad junction! While sat in the ambulance the police officer asked my friend to take the blame for it because he has had other incidents and this would be serious for him.

The traffic investigating officer at the scene told her that there was no doubt it was the police officer's fault and she should not say anything the officer could use in his favour. A few days later after she had got the pain due to her whiplash and other injuries managed she was able to go to the police station to give her formal statement. After the appointment was made she was led past the officer who again tried to get her to take the blame. Others too!

IMHO it is this low level corruption that is institutionalised within all police forces. It is telling that the most anti police person I've met isn't some dodgy minor criminal or black person but a retired police officer who served from a young age until he could retire and get a pension. He gave me a few examples of why he hates and mistrust the police.

He married into a police family where his wife's brothers, father, uncles were all serving officers. He went to a wedding of a police officer her family knew well. West Yorkshire traffic cops. One officer was passed out at midnight at the after wedding do then behind the wheel of a police car somewhere on the M62 at 930 the next morning, fast asleep! That wasn't the worst story!

However, I have known some very decent police officers over the years, including my great uncle who was very senior in the Merseyside police back in the day, retired when i knew him. I think the issue is bad apples corrupting others. It's like a tray of apples in storage, one bad apple can cause the whole tray to go bad. Perhaps the male officer was the bad apple and the female officer a good one tainted by the bad?
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