High BMI how to approach the subject?

For discussions within the Cycle Training profession.
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Carlton green »

Philip Benstead wrote: 3 Oct 2022, 6:13pm The trainee was on school course and was age 12 years.. They were the only one struggling.

A pe teacher suggested that there was too many pupils in the school that had high BMI, due to eating too much rice and curry.
So you ran a course for a school. It’s up to the school to either action this (excess weight) or not and if you’re not happy about a child’s BMI then establish your own rule on it. Let’s say if someone comes to your attention and has a BMI of 32 or over then you won’t train them because, rather than just overweight, they’re clinically obese. The school should also have guidelines in place about exercise in school and weight, ask to see those guidelines and place responsibility for their adherence on the supervising teacher.
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-we ... alculator/

Perhaps you have insurance for your training activities, it might be appropriate for you to consider what liability a clearly overweight student is to you and who carries the can for any adverse consequences of your tuition. You might consider weight limits on your bikes too.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by pjclinch »

I wouldn't approach it by "BMI" specifically..

If a rider has trouble getting going on the most efficient means of moving going for what boils down to reasons of being unfit/overweight I'd say they should try a trike (probably with relatively with low gearing available), and I'd hope such could be made available as a loanable, accessible cycle that would also cover balance/confidence/disability issues in the area.
That way you get their weight out of the picture by giving them an intrinsically balanced, weight bearing cycle, and if they can walk they can pedal such a machine with considerably less effort than that. Using this approach a cycle actually helps them as a mobility aid which might give them encouragement to do more, rather than dread cycling because they struggle.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Pebble
Posts: 1934
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Pebble »

They need to be told they are fat, no good being all PC and going on about high BMI. Too fat to ride a bike at 12, someone should be having a word with their parents.
Nearholmer
Posts: 3931
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Nearholmer »

Hmmm …… so that’s going to really help their self-esteem and set them up for a life free from mental turmoil isn’t it?
User avatar
Philip Benstead
Posts: 1944
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 7:06pm
Location: Victoria , London

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Philip Benstead »

pjclinch wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 4:12pm I wouldn't approach it by "BMI" specifically..

If a rider has trouble getting going on the most efficient means of moving going for what boils down to reasons of being unfit/overweight I'd say they should try a trike (probably with relatively with low gearing available), and I'd hope such could be made available as a loanable, accessible cycle that would also cover balance/confidence/disability issues in the area.
That way you get their weight out of the picture by giving them an intrinsically balanced, weight bearing cycle, and if they can walk they can pedal such a machine with considerably less effort than that. Using this approach a cycle actually helps them as a mobility aid which might give them encouragement to do more, rather than dread cycling because they struggle.

Pete.
.that is neaver going to happen, this school course. The child is fat he need to reduce their weight kids in the go to sweet shop and drink sugary drinks the child does not play football so does not run around enough.
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclists' in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Carlton green »

Pebble wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 4:22pm They need to be told they are fat, no good being all PC and going on about high BMI. Too fat to ride a bike at 12, someone should be having a word with their parents.
H’mm, it’s just a case of how the message is delivered to end up with some positive outcome(s) - well that and not make the situation worse. The OP has no responsibility for that message and that safeguarding care is with the school; the school might feel that they’re in an unenviable position and that they would like to just teach children instead. The child will already know that they’re overweight compared to their peers, after that it’s a case of providing encouragement and suitable routes towards healthy change(s), that might well include - and need - changes by the child’s whole family too.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by pjclinch »

Philip Benstead wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 4:58am
pjclinch wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 4:12pm I wouldn't approach it by "BMI" specifically..

If a rider has trouble getting going on the most efficient means of moving going for what boils down to reasons of being unfit/overweight I'd say they should try a trike (probably with relatively with low gearing available), and I'd hope such could be made available as a loanable, accessible cycle that would also cover balance/confidence/disability issues in the area.
That way you get their weight out of the picture by giving them an intrinsically balanced, weight bearing cycle, and if they can walk they can pedal such a machine with considerably less effort than that. Using this approach a cycle actually helps them as a mobility aid which might give them encouragement to do more, rather than dread cycling because they struggle.
.that is neaver going to happen, this school course. The child is fat he need to reduce their weight kids in the go to sweet shop and drink sugary drinks the child does not play football so does not run around enough.
While I understand you can't rustle up a trike at a moment's notice if there isn't one there now, and while I also appreciate that being obese isn't in this child's best interest, I think you underestimate the degree to which formally disabled people use cycles as a mobility aid by making it easier to get around than by walking. It's also the case that just as you can't make a trike appear with a snap of your fingers, that's actually going to be easier and potentially a much quicker solve than getting someone with trouble controlling their weight to lose a substantial part of it.

He's overweight... but a cycle is weight bearing, so that takes away a lot of his problems right there.
He runs out of puff easily... but a cycle is the most efficient way of getting round on a smooth surface ever invented, so that takes away a lot of his problems right there.

How does he get to the sweetshop? I would suggest probably by walking? If he can walk, supporting a large weight, then he can potentially cycle a lot more easily. Now, it may well be that he can't cycle as easily as others in the same group, but Bikeability isn't about speed, it's about control (L1) and interaction (L2 & 3). If you're going at double walking pace you should be using less energy than if you're walking. If you go on a CTC club run you might reasonably expect a "no drop" policy for the slower riders... why would Bikeability be any different?

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
User avatar
Philip Benstead
Posts: 1944
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 7:06pm
Location: Victoria , London

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Philip Benstead »

pjclinch wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 11:19am
Philip Benstead wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 4:58am
pjclinch wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 4:12pm I wouldn't approach it by "BMI" specifically..

If a rider has trouble getting going on the most efficient means of moving going for what boils down to reasons of being unfit/overweight I'd say they should try a trike (probably with relatively with low gearing available), and I'd hope such could be made available as a loanable, accessible cycle that would also cover balance/confidence/disability issues in the area.
That way you get their weight out of the picture by giving them an intrinsically balanced, weight bearing cycle, and if they can walk they can pedal such a machine with considerably less effort than that. Using this approach a cycle actually helps them as a mobility aid which might give them encouragement to do more, rather than dread cycling because they struggle.
.that is neaver going to happen, this school course. The child is fat he need to reduce their weight kids in the go to sweet shop and drink sugary drinks the child does not play football so does not run around enough.
While I understand you can't rustle up a trike at a moment's notice if there isn't one there now, and while I also appreciate that being obese isn't in this child's best interest, I think you underestimate the degree to which formally disabled people use cycles as a mobility aid by making it easier to get around than by walking. It's also the case that just as you can't make a trike appear with a snap of your fingers, that's actually going to be easier and potentially a much quicker solve than getting someone with trouble controlling their weight to lose a substantial part of it.

He's overweight... but a cycle is weight bearing, so that takes away a lot of his problems right there.
He runs out of puff easily... but a cycle is the most efficient way of getting round on a smooth surface ever invented, so that takes away a lot of his problems right there.

How does he get to the sweetshop? I would suggest probably by walking? If he can walk, supporting a large weight, then he can potentially cycle a lot more easily. Now, it may well be that he can't cycle as easily as others in the same group, but Bikeability isn't about speed, it's about control (L1) and interaction (L2 & 3). If you're going at double walking pace you should be using less energy than if you're walking. If you go on a CTC club run you might reasonably expect a "no drop" policy for the slower riders... why would Bikeability be any different?

Pete.
I was on the end of week trip the problem accurd, it was about 6 miles return trip. The idea it act as reward to the kids and show them they can somewhere on a bike. I know about disable rides I use to work for a disable cycling charity.
Philip Benstead | Life Member Former CTC Councillor/Trustee
Organizing events and representing cyclists' in southeast since 1988
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by pjclinch »

Philip Benstead wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 1:46pm I was on the end of week trip the problem accurd, it was about 6 miles return trip. The idea it act as reward to the kids and show them they can somewhere on a bike. I know about disable rides I use to work for a disable cycling charity.
A 6 mile trip isn't part of Bikeability: it's good it's on offer but if your plan is to show you can get somewhere on a bike you don't need to go that far, and in the case of someone very unfit it's a lot, and wouldn't necessarily be fun. Rewards should be fun!

Cycling is ~ 2-3 times easier than walking. So would you take him on a 2-3 mile walk to show you can get places by walking, or would that make him think, "to hell with this walking lark, it's a bit like hard work and not much like fun"?

It's not realistic to assume he can control his weight easily. It is realistic to adjust your itinerary so a rider who needs more help than the others isn't pushed past the point where they're having a bad time (this is, of course, easier with more hands so you can have more than one group).

Remember, the point of Bikeability is training to the National Standards. Longer rides are in the realm of optional extras for those that want them and are up to them.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by Carlton green »

Without taking sides I would observe that:

Six miles on a bike really isn’t that far and might well encourage a broadening of horizons.

The idea that a group activity should be distinctly constrained and curtailed due to significant lack of fitness of one person really doesn’t seem equitable. Inclusivity is good and something to be encouraged, but there’s also a time to support the people according to their abilities - that’s a practice which is common in almost all schools.

If a child isn’t sufficiently fit to take part in physical exercise then there comes a point of conflict where the needs of the many shouldn’t be neglected in favour of the needs of the few. Of course look at what can be done for the unfit, and in this case the supervising (school) teacher should have been involved in the provision of alternative activity.

Had there been a clearly disruptive child on the course or one that otherwise might clearly have placed either themselves or their peers in danger then that child wouldn’t (shouldn’t) take part either so alternative provision of care should always be in place for clearly non-suitable riders.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by pjclinch »

Carlton green wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 9:53pm Without taking sides I would observe that:

Six miles on a bike really isn’t that far and might well encourage a broadening of horizons.
Yes but then again no... My point is it it's not part of National Standard Training, so given that for particularly unfit people not used to riding it is far, then making the ride part of the Bikeability course, rather than an optional extra bonus, it could actually put someone off by over-stretching them.
Carlton green wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 9:53pm The idea that a group activity should be distinctly constrained and curtailed due to significant lack of fitness of one person really doesn’t seem equitable. Inclusivity is good and something to be encouraged, but there’s also a time to support the people according to their abilities - that’s a practice which is common in almost all schools.
Again , yes, but...
The school's main job here is to provide National Standard cycle training, not a 6 mile ride. So the inclusivity has to concentrate on the Bikeability class, not the "now we've done the course, here's a treat for those of you that are up to it" extra.

The original post described a trainee in a forum suggesting National Standard Training, but it was actually a group ride at the end of a course. If someone is having trouble with x miles the typical advice is to build up to it, and that's what I'd say here, now I know the context wasn't actually Bikeability.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
pedals2slowly
Posts: 260
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 7:50pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by pedals2slowly »

All parents have to complete a form identifying any students health issues.
I've never had obesity identified but have had plenty of overweight children. Adjust training accordingly and it's fairly easy to get children enthusiastic about cycling.
I've never managed to squeeze a 6 mile ride into Bikeability session! Best to spend the time covering the safe cycling training and unless you have an exceptional hill to climb overweight children won't have a problem.
deeferdonk
Posts: 166
Joined: 11 May 2019, 2:50pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by deeferdonk »

How would you deal with a slim child who had bad fitness? Just treat this kid the same.

Us fat people know we're fat. a cycling proficiency teacher telling us to lose weight won't help, probably the reverse. Fat people can enjoy cycling too.
mattsccm
Posts: 5101
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by mattsccm »

Same as you would any other fitness issue. Tell the child and adults that they can't do the training. When asked why say that they are obviously too fat.
Whining about this helps no one , especially the child.
If you are really concern raise a child protection issue. It could be seen as abuse in certain circumstances.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: High BMI how to approach the subject?

Post by pjclinch »

mattsccm wrote: 23 Oct 2022, 6:23pm Same as you would any other fitness issue. Tell the child and adults that they can't do the training. When asked why say that they are obviously too fat.
Whining about this helps no one , especially the child.
If you are really concern raise a child protection issue. It could be seen as abuse in certain circumstances.
There is nothing in Bikeability/National Standards that would preclude an overweight child that could ride doing the actual NS training curriculum.

A 6 mile ride which is added to the training is a different matter.

You shouldn't be excluding them from NS training because they're overweight if the thing they can't do is an extra you've unilaterally added to the NS curriculum. It'd be like saying you can't have basic swimming lessons at the local pool to get your 25m breast stroke badge because you're not up to the 500m open water swim we've added to our swim teaching offering.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Post Reply