Insurance for group trip to France

Post Reply
ChrisF
Posts: 665
Joined: 22 Mar 2014, 7:34pm

Insurance for group trip to France

Post by ChrisF »

I'm planning to take members of our local club (which is affiliated to CyclingUK) on a long weekend trip to Brittany. On checking CyclinUK insurance documents I found this:
4. I am a member of an affiliated club and I want to organise a trip away. What are the
restrictions?
Answer: If it is deemed that you are organising a ‘package’ i.e. booking travel and
accommodation, you may be subject to The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours
Regulations 1992. Seek advice from the Department for Trade and Industry and CTC Holidays and
Tours may also be able to help.
Does anyone have any more info on this? I plan to be arranging both ferry travel and accommodation. But would insurance be easier if I were to ask members of the group to arrange their own ferry tickets?
I don't really want to get involved with the DTI, and CTC Holidays is now defunct!
Chris F, Cornwall
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by PH »

EDIT - Skip this, AndyK's answer below is what you need.
Last edited by PH on 7 Oct 2022, 4:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by mjr »

Previous discussions may help:
viewtopic.php?t=125866
viewtopic.php?t=96420
viewtopic.php?t=78822

In short, probably not but take care not to open sale too widely or do other things that might take you into becoming a tour operator. IMO it'll become a logistical pain and financial risk long before that.
Last edited by mjr on 7 Oct 2022, 4:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
AndyK
Posts: 1498
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm
Location: Mid Hampshire

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by AndyK »

ChrisF wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:05pm I'm planning to take members of our local club (which is affiliated to CyclingUK) on a long weekend trip to Brittany. On checking CyclinUK insurance documents I found this:
4. I am a member of an affiliated club and I want to organise a trip away. What are the
restrictions?
Answer: If it is deemed that you are organising a ‘package’ i.e. booking travel and
accommodation, you may be subject to The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours
Regulations 1992. Seek advice from the Department for Trade and Industry and CTC Holidays and
Tours may also be able to help.
Does anyone have any more info on this? I plan to be arranging both ferry travel and accommodation. But would insurance be easier if I were to ask members of the group to arrange their own ferry tickets?
I don't really want to get involved with the DTI, and CTC Holidays is now defunct!
I shall preface this by saying I Am Not A Lawyer. However I am a professional cycle tour operator so I have had to learn a lot about the legal implications of that over the years.

First thing is that the insurance documents are out of date and the current regulations are "The Package Travel and Linked Arrangements
Regulations 2018" (sometimes called PTR 2018 for short).

Second thing is that this is nothing to do with liability or travel insurance (though insurers will, of course, expect you to obey all relevant laws as a general thing). It's to do with protecting the rights of customers of package travel firms. One of the most important aspects of the Regulations is about ensuring that if a customer has made prepayments for a holiday and the tour operator goes bust, the customer is guaranteed their money back regardless of any other debts the operator might have.

Third and most important thing for you to know is that the Regs almost certainly don't apply to the scenario you've described. There is a lot of confusion about this, not helped by misleading advice from Cycling UK over the years. The government published advice a long time ago to clear up this misunderstanding and you can find the latest version of it at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

Here's what it says about who the regulations don't apply to.
3. We explain the concepts of “package” and “linked travel arrangement” in more detail later in this guidance. However, the 2018 PTRs do not apply to the following packages or LTAs* (regulation 3(2)):

a) Packages and LTAs that last less than 24 hours unless there was overnight accommodation included.

b) Packages and LTAs that are organised occasionally and on a not-for-profit basis and for a limited group of travellers, such as a one-off trip arranged by a church for its members. We would consider occasionally to mean no more than a few times a year. This would apply to the not-for-profit organisation itself and not to an organiser serving that group or market on a commercial basis.
*(LTAs are Linked Travel Arrangements, which is where someone books more than one element of a trip - e.g. if you go to a travel agent and ask them to book both the ferry tickets and the hotel accommodation for you, they have made a Linked Travel Arrangement for you.)

So, if you're running this trip on a not-for-profit basis (i.e. your club is non-commercial and neither you nor the club intends to make a profit) and you're only running it as a one-off this year, the regulations do not apply to you.

Note the last sentence above. If you asked a commercial operator to help you organise the trip, the regulations would apply to them.

I would suggest making it very clear in any communication to club members that this is being run as a non-profit, one-off (or occasional) event, not as a business venture.
ChrisF
Posts: 665
Joined: 22 Mar 2014, 7:34pm

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by ChrisF »

Thanks, AndyK and to JR for the links - I was sure that this had been discussed before but couldn't finf anythng in a brief search.

I'll make sure that individual members have their own travel insurance . My main concern is what would happen if someone in the group did something silly, and as a result a third party took action against the group. Would I become liable as organiser? Maybe the 'Group Travel Insurance' mentioned in one of the links will be the answer.
Chris F, Cornwall
AndyK
Posts: 1498
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm
Location: Mid Hampshire

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by AndyK »

If you are worried about that aspect I guess you could approach Cycling UK for clarification on the Affiliated Bodies' insurance policy, but start off by making clear that the tour does not count as a "package" under the Regulations because [see above: occasional or one-off; limited group of travellers (i.e. club members); not-for-profit] and you're merely seeking confirmation.

Obviously specialist tour operators' liability insurance is available - but trust me, it's not cheap.

Edited to add: It would be easier from your point of view to get the participants to buy their own ferry tickets. Not just for the insurance aspects, but because if something goes terribly wrong with the ferry arrangements you really don't want to be stuck in the middle of the argument! With hotels it's sometimes possible to get them to reserve a block of rooms for a group, then have the individual participants book and pay directly, mentioning that they're with the party when they do so. This is how (for example) a lot of conventions traditionally work, though hotels are more likely to agree to it in their off-season when they don't expect to be fully-booked.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by PH »

Argh! I delegated my original answer because AndyK's first was so comprehensive. But it was this follow up question I'd addressed
I'm not a lawyer either, this is what my MG does and we don't believe we have any additional liability - We split the activities, the MG organises the rides and nothing else, these are covered in exactly the same way as our usual program. Members organise accommodation and travel, on an informal basis. Ideally participants can pay direct, if not, reservations are made in their names, any money transfers are not done through the club accounts. On a recent trip, I found a suitable hotel, made a provisional booking, emailed the group letting them know it was available but they were free to choose elsewhere, collected the money, confirmed the booking in their names.
As I said, not a lawyer, but I can't see what I could become liable for. We probably do more than is needed, but it's simple enough, as long as there's willing volunteers.
AndyK
Posts: 1498
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm
Location: Mid Hampshire

Re: Insurance for group trip to France

Post by AndyK »

A useful addition, PH.
Post Reply