Are we all Trussed up...

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Psamathe
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

cycle tramp wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:09pm
Psamathe wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:06pm
cycle tramp wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:03pm

I've always struggled with the migration issue myself. On one side there's the side of me who wants uk to be food secure and for the countryside to receive more protection from development...
..on the other side of me is someone who thinks we should welcome those who are persecuted, who are at risk of harm and who face a very unsecure future..
..there has to be some balance somewhere... without going all Jules Verne Propeller Island.
I don't see those as conflicting.

Ian
I just wonder if we're going run out of land, y'know.
We might if we continue inappropriate development e.g. using agricultural land when there are brownfield sites available. Building in open countryside is more destructive than building on the outskirts of existing towns (doesn't seem to stop planners though).

My view is that people are people wherever they happen to have been born. The numbers of refugees entering the UK is small, just our politicians kick-up and make out it's a massive issue.

I see population issues as separate from refugee issues. The economic model we use in the UK seems to depend on increasing population (that does not mean I agree with the economic model we use).

It seems to be increasingly reported that farmers have cops rotting in fields because they don't have the people to harvest them.

Ian
Nearholmer
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Nearholmer »

In this country it is possible in place after place to travel a bare few miles from a piece of agricultural land or woodland being built on, to a brownfield site standing empty and derelict. Some very good reuse of brownfield sites does occur, but not enough.
PH
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by PH »

cycle tramp wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:09pm I just wonder if we're going run out of land, y'know.
If everyone aspires to an acre of garden, a double garage and a couple of spare bedrooms, probably within the next century. It's such a shame that higher density usually means lower quality, it doesn't have to be that way.
francovendee
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by francovendee »

Psamathe wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:18pm
cycle tramp wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:09pm
Psamathe wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 9:06pm
I don't see those as conflicting.

Ian
I just wonder if we're going run out of land, y'know.
We might if we continue inappropriate development e.g. using agricultural land when there are brownfield sites available. Building in open countryside is more destructive than building on the outskirts of existing towns (doesn't seem to stop planners though).

My view is that people are people wherever they happen to have been born. The numbers of refugees entering the UK is small, just our politicians kick-up and make out it's a massive issue.

I see population issues as separate from refugee issues. The economic model we use in the UK seems to depend on increasing population (that does not mean I agree with the economic model we use).

It seems to be increasingly reported that farmers have cops rotting in fields because they don't have the people to harvest them.

Ian
The migrants coming over in small boats is used by the right wing media to deflect the attention of the public. The miss management of the economy and the sleaze gets pushed out of the news.
pwa
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by pwa »

francovendee wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:19am
The migrants coming over in small boats is used by the right wing media to deflect the attention of the public. The miss management of the economy and the sleaze gets pushed out of the news.
Well that isn't working right now. The economy is front and centre at the moment, with things like migrants in rubber boats as a side show.

The problem of migrants in inflatable boats on the Channel is something that any government of any complexion will have to address, in conjunction with France. I see it as an issue in itself, and it should be treated as such. Migration policy ought not to be steered by that one area of malfunction.

We need to have clear and up-to-date policy for migrant admission, based on things such as recruitment needs that cannot be met domestically at the moment. But that should not be done to an extent that stops us trying to meet future needs from our existing population. It's about getting a balance. We also have a moral obligation to accept refugees, who might also become workers and meet some of our recruitment needs. So there is some crossover there.
Nearholmer
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Nearholmer »

It’s always worth trying to put “irregular migration” in context:

Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales increased by c3.5 Million. Of that increase c2 Million was due simply to people living longer ….. there were c9 Million people >64yo in 2011, and c11 Million in 2021.

If “small boat” irregular migration went on at its present, very high by historical standards, level it might amount to 350 to 400 Thousand over ten years.



Of course small boat migration is bad, for those who risk life and limb doing it mostly, but next time a grumpy old pensioner gets into moral panic over the country “already being too full up”, it might be worth highlighting that in terms of population growth, the good health of them and their friends is a far more significant factor.
pwa
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by pwa »

Nearholmer wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:48am It’s always worth trying to put “irregular migration” in context:

Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales increased by c3.5 Million. Of that increase c2 Million was due simply to people living longer ….. there were c9 Million people >64yo in 2011, and c11 Million in 2021.

If “small boat” irregular migration went on at its present, very high by historical standards, level it might amount to 350 to 400 Thousand over ten years.



Of course small boat migration is bad, for those who risk life and limb doing it mostly, but next time a grumpy old pensioner gets into moral panic over the country “already being too full up”, it might be worth highlighting that in terms of population growth, the good health of them and their friends is a far more significant factor.
You are right. We need to fix it, but inflatable boat migration isn't among the top reasons for population growth.

I am sure Liz will address it in a calm and well thought out way. (Tongue firmly in cheek.)
francovendee
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by francovendee »

pwa wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:36am
francovendee wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:19am
The migrants coming over in small boats is used by the right wing media to deflect the attention of the public. The miss management of the economy and the sleaze gets pushed out of the news.
Well that isn't working right now. The economy is front and centre at the moment, with things like migrants in rubber boats as a side show.

The problem of migrants in inflatable boats on the Channel is something that any government of any complexion will have to address, in conjunction with France. I see it as an issue in itself, and it should be treated as such. Migration policy ought not to be steered by that one area of malfunction.

We need to have clear and up-to-date policy for migrant admission, based on things such as recruitment needs that cannot be met domestically at the moment. But that should not be done to an extent that stops us trying to meet future needs from our existing population. It's about getting a balance. We also have a moral obligation to accept refugees, who might also become workers and meet some of our recruitment needs. So there is some crossover there.
True enough but the right wing media like to demonise these people.
If British people were faced with the same difficulties then some would also try to get a better life even if it meant breaking rules.
It does need sorting but it needs to be looked at without the hatred that comes from numerous Home Secretaries.
Nearholmer
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Nearholmer »

What Europe has is a people trafficking problem, and if it was framed and thought about that way, the focus might be where it needs to be: on the inhumane, exploitative b’stards who operate the trafficking systems.
reohn2
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:36am
francovendee wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:19am
The migrants coming over in small boats is used by the right wing media to deflect the attention of the public. The miss management of the economy and the sleaze gets pushed out of the news.
Well that isn't working right now. The economy is front and centre at the moment, with things like migrants in rubber boats as a side show.

The problem of migrants in inflatable boats on the Channel is something that any government of any complexion will have to address, in conjunction with France. I see it as an issue in itself, and it should be treated as such. Migration policy ought not to be steered by that one area of malfunction.

We need to have clear and up-to-date policy for migrant admission, based on things such as recruitment needs that cannot be met domestically at the moment. But that should not be done to an extent that stops us trying to meet future needs from our existing population. It's about getting a balance. We also have a moral obligation to accept refugees, who might also become workers and meet some of our recruitment needs. So there is some crossover there.
We also need to stop promising to send those poor boat people to Rwanda on the next available flight,which not only costs the country a fortune but is also amoral.
We currently have yet another home secretary who "dreams" of planes full of immigrants and a asylum seekers heading for Rwanda.
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Psamathe
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:36am
francovendee wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 8:19am
The migrants coming over in small boats is used by the right wing media to deflect the attention of the public. The miss management of the economy and the sleaze gets pushed out of the news.
Well that isn't working right now. The economy is front and centre at the moment, with things like migrants in rubber boats as a side show.

The problem of migrants in inflatable boats on the Channel is something that any government of any complexion will have to address, in conjunction with France. I see it as an issue in itself, and it should be treated as such. Migration policy ought not to be steered by that one area of malfunction.

We need to have clear and up-to-date policy for migrant admission, based on things such as recruitment needs that cannot be met domestically at the moment. But that should not be done to an extent that stops us trying to meet future needs from our existing population. It's about getting a balance. We also have a moral obligation to accept refugees, who might also become workers and meet some of our recruitment needs. So there is some crossover there.
In my own mind I distinguish between "migrant" and "refugee". The distinction to me is that refugees are fleeing for humanitarian reasons whereas migrants are moving more for personal preference reasons (economic, family, etc.).

Solution to the rubber boats on the Channel is for the UK to open an office to take asylum applications on the French Chanel coast. The decision as to being allowed to stay in UK or return would be the same but without the need for a dangerous sea crossing i.e. there would no longer be any need to get into a rubber boat as the outcome would be the same risking the crossing or applying in France. Might not be a complete answer but certainly should reduce numbers or at least a cheap, quick and easy thing to try.

Ian
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mjr
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote: 6 Oct 2022, 5:07pm When they put their crashing the economy down to "external factors" and "what is happening around the world" I get confused as to whether they are so dumb they cannot see what they've done and cause or are they just so arrogant that they can't bring themselves to admit what they've done.
They know most Brits only get their news from the British media and most of it is either owned by friends or has been cowed, plus it doesn't report much foreign news anyway.

The government feels it can now tell whatever spin or outright fibs they like about abroad and most of their electorate will never check by watching France24, Euronews, DW, CNN, and so on, or opening up an international newspaper or news website.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Mike Sales »

We ain't seen nothing yet.
When the climate catastrophe really gets going the number of refugees, internal and external, will be a lot bigger.(and of economic migrants, if that is what you want to call them.)
There are many low lying areas, like Bangladesh and the rice growing deltas of the East which will be uninhabitable.
Florida, New Orleans and our own Fens will get rather damp.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 7 Oct 2022, 1:21pm, edited 2 times in total.
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It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Stradageek
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Stradageek »

francovendee wrote: 7 Oct 2022, 9:21am True enough but the right wing media like to demonise these people.
If British people were faced with the same difficulties then some would also try to get a better life even if it meant breaking rules.
It does need sorting but it needs to be looked at without the hatred that comes from numerous Home Secretaries.
I agree and would probably go further and say that much as 9/11 was nothing to do with Bush's claim that 'they just hate the freedom loving people of America' and everything to do with US foreign policy so also is the enormous level of global inequality responsible for the migrant issue.

The solution isn't simple but I feel that to start by admitting that the 'West's' extensive history of exploiting and impoverishing the 'Third World' (with the British Empire front-and-centre) is a major factor, would be a good thing. To follow we could acknowledge that the 'temperate belt' has enormous advantages that our fellow humans are denied by accident of birth in more arid/disease ridden etc.areas. And finally we could stop endlessly trying to sell western goods and lifestyle to a population that cannot afford them.

I could go on.... :wink:
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mjr
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Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by mjr »

The Guardian and others have noticed that Truss wasn't dressed as a Thatcher tribute for her conference speech, but in a slightly oranger version of a dress worn in the Years and Years TV drama by "Vivienne Rook, an outspoken British celebrity businesswoman turned populist politician whose controversial opinions divide the nation." A fascist, according to some.

Surely this wasn't a coincidence, any more than the Thatcher bow outfit for the debate was?
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