Crash and helmet

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mattheus »

The new Spirit of the Age seems to be: avoid physics peeing competitions, just talk about helmets.
So i've removed all the contentious "science" from your post, just for now:
dmrcycle wrote: 31 Oct 2022, 3:34pm All along you are confusing the conservation of momentum as a theory and momentum of one or two objects in a closed system. After a collision the momentum of the object is less.

We are talking about the reduction in the speed/momentum of a head. After a collision you do agree that is loses momentum? It slows down and eventually stops! It’s momentum is then zero. Simple.

Then you chose expand the situation and to argue that I have invented a new branch of physics and discredit me. It’s a perfectly simple objects slow down their momentum gets less. When the system is only considering two objects they don’t conserve their momentum. It’s transferred out of the system we are talking about.
Please bear in mind: if your head stops really quickly, your brain will keep on moving within your skull.

Some suggest this is significant in studying traumatic brain injuries.
dmrcycle
Posts: 73
Joined: 20 Sep 2022, 12:16am

Re: Crash and helmet

Post by dmrcycle »

By the way I have not talked about momentum consevation just the momentum of individual objects. I have always stated that. It was suggested in a previous post that during a collision if a helmet cracked there was no loss of momentum of the brain inside. If you consider the brain and it started off at 10km/hr and ended up at 0 km/hr the momentum of the object the brain (not the system) is less. Kinetic energy is a better way to look at it as energy is transfered in cracking the helmet. The head has slowed its kinetic energy and momentum have reduced.

BTW I find it offensive you assume I am a he. I have not revealed my gender at any time. Another assumption by you.
dmrcycle
Posts: 73
Joined: 20 Sep 2022, 12:16am

Re: Crash and helmet

Post by dmrcycle »

mattheus wrote: 31 Oct 2022, 4:16pm The new Spirit of the Age seems to be: avoid physics peeing competitions, just talk about helmets.
So i've removed all the contentious "science" from your post, just for now:
dmrcycle wrote: 31 Oct 2022, 3:34pm All along you are confusing the conservation of momentum as a theory and momentum of one or two objects in a closed system. After a collision the momentum of the object is less.

We are talking about the reduction in the speed/momentum of a head. After a collision you do agree that is loses momentum? It slows down and eventually stops! It’s momentum is then zero. Simple.

Then you chose expand the situation and to argue that I have invented a new branch of physics and discredit me. It’s a perfectly simple objects slow down their momentum gets less. When the system is only considering two objects they don’t conserve their momentum. It’s transferred out of the system we are talking about.
Please bear in mind: if your head stops really quickly, your brain will keep on moving within your skull.

Some suggest this is significant in studying traumatic brain injuries.
There is absolutely nothing contentious about what I have written. If you think so you need to go back to look at those BBC bitsize videos I recommended. You do know that momentum of an object is it’s mass x velocity? Do you agree that’s the definition? Do you agree that an object can come to rest after an accident? Do you therefore agree that it’s momentum will be less?

The speed that the brain slows relative to the helmet is irrelevant here. But it also does slow down don’t you agree? Or does it keep it’s momentum which I recall was your origional argument that the brain had all the momentum as it was transfered to it.
dmrcycle
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Joined: 20 Sep 2022, 12:16am

Re: Crash and helmet

Post by dmrcycle »

And if we finally agree (although I am not sure some will) that the momentum of a body is reduced in a collision then we can finally talk about the derivative of that momentum which is equal to the force that the object sees.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mattheus »

As I wrote:
mattheus wrote: 31 Oct 2022, 4:16pm Please bear in mind: if your head stops really quickly, your brain will keep on moving within your skull.

Some suggest this is significant in studying traumatic brain injuries.
Now:
dmrcycle wrote: 31 Oct 2022, 5:23pm The speed that the brain slows relative to the helmet is irrelevant here.
It's defintely not. There are lots of studies (statements, reports, yada yada by experts in the field) that state the movement of the brain RELATIVE TO THE SKULL is the principle cause of injury*. That could be rotational or linear differences.

We can fly round the world in the jet age with our brains carrying enormous amounts of momentum, but if our brains follow suit there generally isn't a problem.


*I suppose instances of spikes piercing the skull are the exception, I'm sure they happen occasionally. You are welcome to discuss that as you wish.
dmrcycle
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by dmrcycle »

It’s irrelevant to the conversation of conservation of momentum not to damage I agree.
Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

There is absolutely nothing contentious about what I have written. If you think so you need to go back to look at those BBC bitsize videos I recommended. You do know that momentum of an object is it’s mass x velocity? Do you agree that’s the definition? Do you agree that an object can come to rest after an accident? Do you therefore agree that it’s momentum will be less?

The speed that the brain slows relative to the helmet is irrelevant here. But it also does slow down don’t you agree? Or does it keep it’s momentum which I recall was your origional argument that the brain had all the momentum as it was transfered to it.
You get a far clearer picture thinking about it all in terms of kinetic energy.

KE is energy possesed by a body because it is moving and is equal to half of the mass multiplied by square of velocity.

So, as I’m trundling along on my bike, my brain has some KE. If my head comes to a halt, the kinetic energy possessed by my brain has to fall from whatever it was to zero, the kinetic energy has to be dissipated.

If I come to a halt gently, using the brakes, the KE from my brain (and the rest of me) is dissipated harmlessly as heat at the brake pads. If I come to halt suddenly, the KE possessed by my brain is dissipated suddenly. The most extreme deceleration probably occurs if I come to a halt by bashing my head on something, and in that case pretty much the only thing reducing the rate of deceleration of my brain is the fluid inside my skull. All of the KE possessed by my brain is dissipated near-instantneously as heat and tissue damage as my brain contacts the inside of my skull - not good!

Adding a cycle helmet of the conventional kind doesn’t greatly influence the rate of deceleration if my brain, because they contain no “crumple zone” to reduce deceleration and dissipate energy, although see below regarding helmet breakage, and some designs of helmet can add extra trouble by causing rapid twisting of the head under certain circumstances too, thereby causing tearing of the lining of the skull.

So, don’t bother with a helmet?

Well, that wouldn’t be my answer, because a helmet does offer some protection against cuts, penetrations etc, and it can dissipate energy by breaking apart. This last point isn’t trivial, because it takes a fair bit of energy to split or break a cycle helmet, and energy dissipated that way is energy not harming the wearer. It probably saves skulls from getting broken.

In short, I believe a helmet can protect your head from some forms of injury, but isn’t much help in regards concussion. As a BTW, you don’t even need to hit your head to suffer concussion - provided the deceleration of the head is too quick for energy to be dissipated harmlessly, it will occur.

Motorcycle and other full-face helmets often include some degree of crumple zone padding, but still not much, so again might not be proof against concession in a very rapid deceleration, but they are designed to prevent the wearer getting their jaw smashed, and some also act to reduce neck crushing and twisting.

As a footnote, worth noting that the velocity component in the KE equation is squared, which means that speed has a huge influence on what injuries occur in a collision. My surmise/guess/hypothesis is that human beings have evolved anatomy that copes very well indeed with the energies involved in falling over when walking, and pretty well with the energies involved in a wide range of running accidents, but that our anatomy is severely challenged by the energies involved in, for instance, cycling accidents at greater than running speed, because the extra weight and complexity of tissues to cope with that would impose an evolutionary penalty and get selected-out if/when they arose. I often dont wear a helmet when riding my ponerous old shopping bike gently on paths away from roads, because the speeds and hence KEs involved are comparable with those of running not very fast.
drossall
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by drossall »

Nearholmer wrote: 1 Nov 2022, 11:32am...but that our anatomy is severely challenged by the energies involved in, for instance, cycling accidents at greater than running speed...
Sprinters can reach speeds that most cyclists would find challenging. I've always found it slightly curious that no-one thinks that they need helmets - and especially hurdlers, among whom falls seem quite common.
Nearholmer
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Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

Probably an evolutionary trade-off between running speed and robustness against falls. There must have been huge advantage in being able to run fast both to escape prey and catch some prey, and evolving too much robustness might slow one down disadvantageously. Whether falls in athletics pose much head-injury risk I have no idea.
Stevek76
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Stevek76 »

Remember that unless you encounter some sort of moment that rotates your velocity in a downwards direction, the vertical component of your velocity as you hit the ground is much the same regardless of your horizontal velocity.

Also most people when falling forward to tend to use their hands to help break that fall. Given that I'm not sure that sprint speed had much to do with this sort of evolutionary tangle. Bigger threats to head integrity probably a mix of other accidental incidents and violence.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

Yes, you’re right in one sense, but taking things in the other direction, a mutation that made people incredibly fragile when simply tripping over, which must have arisen at some stage, must have been selected out, and the fact that we are no more robust than we are suggests that greater robustness has also been selected out. We are as robust as was most fit for our environment for most of our existence, although how much part survival of ordinary falls played in getting us to the particular point we’ve got to is moot.
dmrcycle
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by dmrcycle »

Also though evolution is all about survival to reproduction age. Beyond that age, survival of the fittest/most robust doesn’t have an effect on evolution. So if an impact doesn’t kill you but causes damage that manifests in later life or reduces cognitive thinking ability then we are unlikely to evolve that away. I suspect our skulls are so strong for the exact reason that we would be hit on the head and at some point if we had thin skulls we would have died and not reproduce. However it’s not always about survival with the brain the issue could be loss of ability/memory or dementia later in life. We use our brains much more than we did as cavemen and we live longer. So I guess that’s why it’s still a vulnerable organ.
Jdsk
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Jdsk »

dmrcycle wrote: 1 Nov 2022, 5:30pm Also though evolution is all about survival to reproduction age. Beyond that age, survival of the fittest/most robust doesn’t have an effect on evolution.
...
It can do, eg grandmother effects:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis

Most recently demonstrated in giraffes!:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... /mam.12268
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... scientists

Jonathan
Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

Beyond that age, survival of the fittest/most robust doesn’t have an effect on evolution
Not quite as simple as that, even for us chaps, who are notoriously fire and forget, because feeding and protecting the offspring until they can fend for themselves comes into it too. A gene line where the parents all died shortly after conceiving wouldn’t work for “higher animals”, the gene line would founder, although of course it does work for some daddy spiders for instance.

The very fact that we’ve evolved to have offspring which need oodles of long-term nurture is almost certainly part of our success (excess?) because t gives a long period in which to pass on learning, and you can’t teach your children if you are dead. The ability to teach a great deal is a really good adaptation, it massively promotes the gene lne. That gene line will out-compete others. The “fitness” passed on at conception includes in that case a longevity component, a nurturing component, and a teaching component.
dmrcycle
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by dmrcycle »

Fascinating stuff!
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