Starmer talking about immigration policy

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:26pm Any fule kno that a good public skool education is a great advantage in life. And, if you were a boarder even more so.
A grammar skool is the next best thing.
Unfair as it may seem its sadly a fact.

Al
Recent experience with leadership of the country strongly suggests this is a fact that should be vigorously challenged!
pete75
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by pete75 »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 1:35pm
Carlton green wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 1:28pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 11:42am

First of all, you speak for yourself, not an entire generation.

[moderated]

Thirdly, my own experience is absolutely different; that the process for getting into medicine requires contacts, time and cash only available to a very privileged minority. Notably those in private education.
Ah, as I suspected all along, you’re a posh boy with loads of money and contacts everywhere. Sorry to have troubled you :D
Quite the opposite. I've seen posh boys and girls with well connected parents ease their way through the system.

I've not seen any evidence of "minorities" being privileged, as you claim.
Exactly. It's like the Eton Advent Calendar. Looks no different to any other but your father's contacts open all the doors for you.

[moderated]
Carlton green
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by Carlton green »

Funnily enough I’ve just been looking at something similar: https://www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-m ... quirements. See widening participation and contextual admissions.

Aston:
In keeping with our vision of being a socially inclusive medical school, we aim to offer up to 40 per cent of our UK places to students who meet specified widening participation criteria.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Nearholmer
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by Nearholmer »

I’ve recruited under “affirmative action” arrangements, and it is a load of old shoe-menders to talk of it as “systematic bias”, the whole point of it is to avoid that very thing.

A lot of people bandy the term about without understanding how it operates, and has to operate, within UK employment law.

I suspect that it is yet another thing where criticism (sometimes, but by no means always justified) of US practices gets “painted across” to the UK, where the law is significantly different. And, of course, it gets trotted out in sour grapes mode, like so much other old rubbish.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Carlton green wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:42pm Funnily enough I’ve just been looking at something similar: https://www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-m ... quirements. See widening participation and contextual admissions.

Aston:
In keeping with our vision of being a socially inclusive medical school, we aim to offer up to 40 per cent of our UK places to students who meet specified widening participation criteria.
How does this prove discrimination? Surely it's the opposite - changing what you yourself acknowledge to be a system biased in favour of the privileged?
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by Vorpal »

Carlton green wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:42pm Funnily enough I’ve just been looking at something similar: https://www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-m ... quirements. See widening participation and contextual admissions.

Aston:
In keeping with our vision of being a socially inclusive medical school, we aim to offer up to 40 per cent of our UK places to students who meet specified widening participation criteria.
If you look at the criteria, *none* are based upon upon ethnicity or minority status. What they do is give credit towards admissions (effectively reducing the minimum grade requirement) if a candidate meets one or more of the following, depending upon the programme,
-having been in care
-living in a low participation neighbourhood
-having completed an Aston Pathways programme
-being eligible for the UCAT bursary
-having been eligible for free school meals by the end of key stage 4

So these are targeted at people who come from low income families and areas. While a higher proportion of low income families are likely to be Black and ethnic minorities, or disabled, there is no direct relationship between minority status and admissions.

While it is true that there has been a significant increase in Blacks and ethnic minorities, and disabled students studying medicine, they are still generally underrepresented (a few London schools excepted) and they do not achieve leadership roles, either in practice or academia. This is in line with general trends in both the NHS and higher education.

Does this sound like preferential treatment?
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Cugel
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by Cugel »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 12:45pm Yes, Remainer constant anger is embarrasing. You cant refute the official statistics so attack the authors. Its a failed strategy. :lol: Lets hear your detailed analysis of the facts in the article. You lost, just get over it and move on.

Al
Is it still 2016? Have I just been dreaming the last 6 years? Oh, I do hope so!

It seems more likely, though, that (as usual) you have nothing to argue a case from so resort to the same old jeers. You could at least think up a new one to add to the two you always employ. :-)

Cugel, always amused to read your yah-boos, though.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by al_yrpal »

Read the article...or do you have a closed mind?

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...
Psamathe
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by Psamathe »

Vorpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 3:17pm
Carlton green wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:42pm Funnily enough I’ve just been looking at something similar: https://www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-m ... quirements. See widening participation and contextual admissions.

Aston:
In keeping with our vision of being a socially inclusive medical school, we aim to offer up to 40 per cent of our UK places to students who meet specified widening participation criteria.
If you look at the criteria, *none* are based upon upon ethnicity or minority status. What they do is give credit towards admissions (effectively reducing the minimum grade requirement) if a candidate meets one or more of the following, depending upon the programme,
-having been in care
-living in a low participation neighbourhood
-having completed an Aston Pathways programme
-being eligible for the UCAT bursary
-having been eligible for free school meals by the end of key stage 4

So these are targeted at people who come from low income families and areas. While a higher proportion of low income families are likely to be Black and ethnic minorities, or disabled, there is no direct relationship between minority status and admissions.

While it is true that there has been a significant increase in Blacks and ethnic minorities, and disabled students studying medicine, they are still generally underrepresented (a few London schools excepted) and they do not achieve leadership roles, either in practice or academia. This is in line with general trends in both the NHS and higher education.

Does this sound like preferential treatment?
What concerns me about these "schemes" is that I feel entry should be according to capability (not over/under-priviledge). If your demonstrated abilities are in the top range for the available places (and above minimum threshold) you get a place.

Rather than introducing weird bias attempts at making up for e.g. poor schooling, fix the e.g. inadequate schooling rather than bodge bias into higher level entries.

Ian
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Cugel
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by Cugel »

Carlton green wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:01pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 1:35pm

… I've seen posh boys and girls with well connected parents ease their way through the system.

I've not seen any evidence of "minorities" being privileged, as you claim.
The young folk that I know have told me of a selection system that is systematically biased against them and in favour of minority groups (affirmative action). Because one person sees no evidence does not necessarily mean that something doesn’t happen. Are those young people snowflakes? I wouldn’t advise asking as them as the response given would be deservedly unpleasant.
Ah, I recall the whines of a certain sort of benefit claimant I often encountered at the benefit office counter when I worked there. "If my face was black, you wouldn't refuse to give me money (I'm not entitled to)".

The answer was always, "We have no black, brown or even yellow claimants as all such locals are working". Given with a nice smile, of course.

The next whine was usually along the lines of, "Well that waster next door gets benefits so I should".

The answer was always the question, "Are you telling me that you're a waster"? (Another smile offered, obviously).

In short, those who fail to obtain what they want but have no entitlement or qualification for it often whine about their favourite pariah-class getting favourable treatment. This is generally never the case but they like to feel that it is since this amplifies their feeling of being hard done-by.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Psamathe wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 3:25pm
Vorpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 3:17pm
Carlton green wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:42pm Funnily enough I’ve just been looking at something similar: https://www.medschools.ac.uk/studying-m ... quirements. See widening participation and contextual admissions.

Aston:
If you look at the criteria, *none* are based upon upon ethnicity or minority status. What they do is give credit towards admissions (effectively reducing the minimum grade requirement) if a candidate meets one or more of the following, depending upon the programme,
-having been in care
-living in a low participation neighbourhood
-having completed an Aston Pathways programme
-being eligible for the UCAT bursary
-having been eligible for free school meals by the end of key stage 4

So these are targeted at people who come from low income families and areas. While a higher proportion of low income families are likely to be Black and ethnic minorities, or disabled, there is no direct relationship between minority status and admissions.

While it is true that there has been a significant increase in Blacks and ethnic minorities, and disabled students studying medicine, they are still generally underrepresented (a few London schools excepted) and they do not achieve leadership roles, either in practice or academia. This is in line with general trends in both the NHS and higher education.

Does this sound like preferential treatment?
What concerns me about these "schemes" is that I feel entry should be according to capability (not over/under-priviledge). If your demonstrated abilities are in the top range for the available places (and above minimum threshold) you get a place.

Rather than introducing weird bias attempts at making up for e.g. poor schooling, fix the e.g. inadequate schooling rather than bodge bias into higher level entries.

Ian
There is, of course, a grey area between "demonstrated abilities" and "using privilege to overstate abilities"

The fact is that privilege rather than ability has guided the country forever.

Designing entrance systems to avoid this in the future seems an unalloyed positive to me.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 3:24pm Read the article...or do you have a closed mind?

Al
Are you able to acknowledge that the vast majority of analysis, including that of the present government (the OBR) shows a significant negative impact of Brexit.

Are you able to acknowledge that "Briefings for Britain" is a clear outlier?

Or do you have a closed mind?
reohn2
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 2:26pm Any fule kno that a good public skool education is a great advantage in life. And, if you were a boarder even more so.
A grammar skool is the next best thing.
Unfair as it may seem its sadly a fact.

Al
And which starkly illustrates why money for the most part buys priviledge.
The class system is alive and kicking,mostly the 'lower' classes in the teeth when they get above their station,and it stinks to high heaven!
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al_yrpal
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by al_yrpal »

Look at the sources quoted. Most are based on rigorous accurate well researched statistics, rather than the cherry picked bad news you constantly spew out.

You are amongst a handful of the most frequent highly biased posters constantly running down post Brexit Britain.

If you can find flaws in the data please point them out.

As for a closed mind you demonstrate that you have one almost every day.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Starmer talking about immigration policy

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 4:08pm Look at the sources quoted. Most are based on rigorous accurate well researched statistics, rather than the cherry picked bad news you constantly spew out.

You are amongst a handful of the most frequent highly biased posters constantly running down post Brexit Britain.

If you can find flaws in the data please point them out.

As for a closed mind you demonstrate that you have one almost every day.

Al
Why do you suppose your source (an adviser to the Truss government!) is so different to almost every other source you could have chosen?

What could that tell you about bias here? Or closed minds, indeed?
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