Reliability, complexity...

[djnotts]

Getting ever closer to needing e assistance I have been researching, here and elsewhere. It does not fill me with enthusiasm.
So many references to faults and failures, so much discussion of software etc.
At present I have 6 bikes, all instantly rideable. I can afford only 1 e-bike, so it needs to be available every day.
All the talk of mapping, software, linking to smart phones, apps etc fill me with alarm.
I just want some trouble-free assistance, simple controls, 5000 miles p.a., at least 40 mile range, but doesn't seem to exist.
Maybe I'll just have to go for a boring walk every day.
Or buy a m'cycle and ride to a more pleasant walking location.

[stodd]

Getting ever closer to needing e assistance I have been researching, here and elsewhere. It does not fill me with enthusiasm.
So many references to faults and failures, so much discussion of software etc.
At present I have 6 bikes, all instantly rideable. I can afford only 1 e-bike, so it needs to be available every day.
All the talk of mapping, software, linking to smart phones, apps etc fill me with alarm.
I just want some trouble-free assistance, simple controls, 5000 miles p.a., at least 40 mile range, but doesn't seem to exist.
Maybe I'll just have to go for a boring walk every day.
Or buy a m'cycle and ride to a more pleasant walking location.

No need for any different mapping software than you run on your current bikes; very likely that is none which is fine for ebikes too.
Some ebikes need smart phone apps but most do not (especially cheaper, simpler ones).
Most are pretty reliable.

You may do best to convert one of your existing bikes. A kit for around £500-600 from the likes of Woosh (https://wooshbikes.co.uk/) will do it. If you are used to doing your own maintenance you shouldn't have any difficulty fitting a kit.

Range is very variable depending how you intend to ride and how much assistance you are going to want. Don't believe any 'up to' figures in advertisements. Check at https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/ for an idea of what to expect for your style of riding and depending on battery capacity. Designed for Bosch bikes, but gives a very good idea applicable to other ebikes; and especially to highlight the huge differences depending on road conditions and riding style..

If you go for a ready built bike you have the choice of
A) a more upmarket bike with proprietary electrical system (typically Bosch or Shimano). Spares and repairs are going to be expensive on those.
or B) a simpler one with quality generic Chinese components. These will be much cheaper to repair if you do have any issues. Again look at Woosh for complete quality simple bikes at sensible prices. Wisper also recommended.

[Cugel]

Getting ever closer to needing e assistance I have been researching, here and elsewhere. It does not fill me with enthusiasm.
So many references to faults and failures, so much discussion of software etc.
At present I have 6 bikes, all instantly rideable. I can afford only 1 e-bike, so it needs to be available every day.
All the talk of mapping, software, linking to smart phones, apps etc fill me with alarm.
I just want some trouble-free assistance, simple controls, 5000 miles p.a., at least 40 mile range, but doesn't seem to exist.
Maybe I'll just have to go for a boring walk every day.
Or buy a m'cycle and ride to a more pleasant walking location.

How much do you have to spend? What style of bike do you want as an e-bike?

In our hoose there are three e-bikes, all with Fazua Evation motors & batteries. These are only available as part of a built bike, not as a kit. The only disadvantage is the cost: around £3000 for the least expensive - although the bikes that they're in tend to be high quality to match the high quality of the Fazua system. You can find such bikes in sales or otherwise discounted, though. (See below).

What are the advantages:

The bike with motor & battery in can be quite lightweight for an e-bike: anything from 13kg up to about 21kg, depending on the style of bike. The battery is a 250wh item but weighs only 1.4 kg so you can easily carry a spare as well if you want longer range for one ride. I never have.

The motor and battery are distinct units but come encased in a downtube module that can be removed .... and replaced with an empty module case to turn the e-bike into an ordinary (unpowered) bike weighing 3kg less. You can also charge the battery away from the bike, which is very convenient.

Because the motor/battery is a separate and easily removed/replaced unit (takes 5 - 10 seconds) you can still change every component on the bike except the bottom bracket bearings. (A dealer can do that if you ever break one - very unlikely). The Fazua BB gearbox has a very, very long expected life before it needs maintenance, according to Fazua.

The engineering of the motor, battery and bottom bracket gearbox through which the power is added to your cranks is top notch.

The motor comes pre configured with 3 different power-assist modes (as well as "off") but a simple Windows or Mac software program aalso allows you to easily reprogram these assistance levels to exactly how you want them. (But you don't have to do so). You can change the power added at each level along with the rate that motor power is added to your leg power as you increase or decrease your pedalling effort.

There's no drag at all from the motor when its off and you're pedalling; or when you aren't pedalling. It disengages from the BB gearbox.

The average range with the power always on at low or mid level is between 50 - 70 kilometres in hilly country. The ladywife, who has an FTP (max pedalling effort for at least half an hour continuously) of about 130 watts does 50 kilometer rides with 800-1000 metres of climbing and usually has 20% of her battery left at the end of the ride. I can get around 150 - 200 kilometres out of one battery charge as I only ever use the motor up the longer & steeper Welsh hills. That's 3 or 4 50k rides with the ladywife before I have to recharge.

https://fazua.com/en/energy/ride-50-eva ... Components

**********
We've had no issues at all with any of the three Fazua-equipped e-bikes we have. They were all bought at between 15 - 45% off the list price. (you have to be patient and trawl for those bargains).

One of the bikes I have is this:

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/?s=e-substance

I got the CF framed road bike version, although it was but £3000 in a sale when I bought it. I notice they have an aluminium-framed version for £2475, which is 25% off the list price. This bike is very versatile and can be anything from a road bike to a tourer or gravel bike if you just interchange components (which you may already have) such as wheels, tyres and gearing. You can get up to 50mm wide tyres in it.

The version I have has done about 1200k so far, on roads and forest tracks. It's a marvellous machine.

Cugel

[hemo]

The issue is bike style and likely some compromise in components when it comes to pricing.
Reliabilty isn't always an issue and likely will be amechanical part rather the an electrical part that will let you down gievn a good working bike.

For my peneth worth I have always had hub bike kits which I have fitted my self and over the last nine years my only real let down has been puntures, the simple reliabilty of a china bafang or other china hub has been near faultless barring one or two maintenance bearing replacements all comfortbly done in the garage taking about an hour.


Mid drive with propriatary components like bosh. yamaha & shimano steps I would never entertain as they are not user repairable and possibly some othe rbike brands as they now ten to use as mentioned sone smart phone interface which imv is not need ed on a simple thing like a bike.

[djnotts]

Thanks all, a lot to consider.
As to spend - certainly can't afford over 1500 quid and even that subject to what existing fleet fetches.
Reinforces my instinct that a front wheel drive conversion kit for 1 of my current (!) bikes only real option.
I must think harder...

[rjb]

I fitted a Tongsheng mid drive kit to my tandem after reading this thread.
Fitting is very straightforward and should be straightforward if you are used to doing your own maintenance.

viewtopic.php?t=147663

Total cost was less than £500 for the complete set. 250W Motor, Handlebar controller and Battery. I fitted it straight from the box as supplied. It's set for a 25" wheel and cuts out at 15.5 mph so is street legal. Of course you can alter these settings if you feel inclined to. Purchased from PSW power in Germany. Cost included all taxes and delivery was a few days.

We've done 2000 miles on it, and with the 12.5 amphr battery gives us a range of 60 miles + between charges.

[Chuntydody]

I have an NCM Milano Plus which I bought at then end of Jan this year. I bought the Plus rather than the standard model because I wanted specifically to be able to cycle to my parents with no range concerns. The Plus has a 16Ah (769Wh) rather than 13Ah (624Wh) of the standard model.

The official range is up to 150km, which can be taken with a large pinch of salt!.

I only ever use maximum assist (6 levels) and have done 38 miles recently with some range left. So while I wouldn't guarantee it could definitely do 40 miles in all conditions or roads, it certainly could most of the time.

RRP when I got mine was £1599, but there was a 3rd off at the time, so i only paid £1119!. Looking on Leon Cycles website (seems to be the only UK retailer), RRP is now £1799, but currently available for £1599.

Over the time I've had it and 950-ish miles I've covered so far, the only problems have been 3 broken spokes on the back wheel. But that has almost certainly been my fault for using it on rougher surfaces than I should and bumping up kerbs!.

[Bonzo Banana]

The most reliable ebikes are hub motor powered because they are relatively simple and more importantly they act independently of the drivetrain so the drivetrain has a much easier life and it can massively extend the time between replacement parts. Direct drive hub motors are more reliable than geared hub motors because they don't have the internal gearing or freewheel/clutch mechanism but there are disadvantages to them including size and weight. They are the only type of ebike motor that offers regen normally and regen always massively reduces brake pad wear. On a purely value front direct drive is by the far the best option, for reliability and cost savings. However for most people geared hub motors are better especially if you are fitting an ebike kit to bike never designed to be an ebike. Direct drive hub motors are best fitted to stronger frame bikes or stronger forks ideally steel especially if you enable regen on the controller.

The important thing is to avoid proprietary solutions of any type they can be incredibly expensive not just to buy initially but over the long term and often have the shortest life expectancy.

Yosepower is worth a look, some great value kits many of which are shipped from within the UK so delivered quickly.

Reliability is not the same for all. If you are a light weak rider then most solutions may offer good reliability, its not just about looking at the ebike options its also about looking at yourself and how hard that motor will have to work for you and how much abuse that motor will take.

[stodd]

Direct drive hub motors are more reliable than geared hub motors because they don't have the internal gearing or freewheel/clutch mechanism but there are disadvantages to them including size and weight.

Absolutely. Another disadvantage of direct drive motors is that they tend to be less efficient at slow speeds because of the lack of gearing. That means they are not that good at hill climbing. It also makes for less efficient use of battery, so you need a battery with both more capacity (watt hours) and more ability to deliver high current (amps), which comes expensive and heavy.

One of the commonest problems that comes up on the pedelcs site is with people who have bought a cheap direct drive motor and a cheap battery to go with it.

[djnotts]

Thanks all. My head hurts!
Mid-drive doesn't appeal - I want to keep my 3 x 8 drive train.
Front sounds OK. I'll have to consider direct v geared. I weigh less than 10 stone and am pretty gentle with my bikes. Slow rather than weak, just aiming to up my av moving speed from 10 to 13 mph. I don't plan on taking on any more hills than I do at present, just slightly faster!
Probably adapt my decent alu Univega Alpina, with new steel forks.

[Bonzo Banana]

Direct drive hub motors are more reliable than geared hub motors because they don't have the internal gearing or freewheel/clutch mechanism but there are disadvantages to them including size and weight.

Absolutely. Another disadvantage of direct drive motors is that they tend to be less efficient at slow speeds because of the lack of gearing. That means they are not that good at hill climbing. It also makes for less efficient use of battery, so you need a battery with both more capacity (watt hours) and more ability to deliver high current (amps), which comes expensive and heavy.

One of the commonest problems that comes up on the pedelcs site is with people who have bought a cheap direct drive motor and a cheap battery to go with it.

Lots of efficiency losses in different types of ebike motors. This video gives an extensive amount of info and as a company I would say they favour direct drive hub motors overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJe_gygRGU

A direct drive hub motor is very efficient at the average speed cyclists go at because there is no internal gearing its a pure brushless motor. There is no loss of efficiency due to putting its power through the drivetrain where some power is lost in the chain. It's larger size allows it to dissipate heat more easily. You don't get worn internal cogs that reduce efficiency either. The main issue with direct drive hub motors is at legal wattage they are at about 30-35Nm, a typical geared hub motor despite being much smaller is maybe 40-45Nm with larger versions pushing 65Nm and mid-drive range from about 40Nm to 100Nm but that power is scaled through the gears so if you had a very low gear maybe 32T chainring and 48T cog at the rear you could boost that power to 1.5X its rating minus losses through the chain. Everytime I look at Grin's analysis I don't see direct drive overall as less efficient and in fact with regen enabled it could be the most efficient depending on how you ride your bike. If you going up a steep hill and want the motor to do almost all the work then direct drive is not the ideal option but it still provides a huge amount of assistance. When you look at most e-motorbikes, e-scooters, electric cars etc and many other vehicles they are all direct drive hub motors for their reliability and durability for vehicles being used for 1000s maybe 10s of 1000s of miles per year its not a realistic solution to use mid-drive or geared hub motors for such use and of course you would lose regen that most EV's rely on to boost their mileage. When it comes to bicycles direct drive hub motors are seen as a little too big so more complicated engineering solutions have been developed which deliver more torque at a lower weight but that brings with it a huge number of other compromises. When I look at Grin's analysis of motor systems I'm not seeing warnings about direct drive being less efficient for hills it seems like a marginal difference in efficiency which is compensated for in the overall efficiency for the complete ride.

However basic direct drive motor kits like violamart often have two modes of operation you have the throttle which works great, controls power delivery cleanly and efficiently or you have the pedal sensor mode which just gives full power when you start pedalling which is grossly inefficient and wasteful of power and puts a huge strain on the battery. It's like a half-hearted attempt to comply with the awful EU ebike legislation. Most of the world uses throttles on ebikes so its just a bodge to sell into Europe because the controllers supplied with such kits have very little logic circuitry. Normally such kits are not sold with pedal cadence sensors elsewhere in the world. I only mention this as often people use such kits to compare to other motor types but of course there are fantastic direct drive motors that use sophisticated controllers and can use torque sensors too and deliver power in a similar way to most mid-drive motors.

[djnotts]

More thanks.

"You don't get worn internal cogs that reduce efficiency either." (Bonzo banana.)

In my so far limited "research" I have noted references to geared hubs suffering from such wear within a few '000 miles. I doubt that can be repaired at home.
So a life-expectancy of less than 6 months?

[stodd]

I've never tried, but I understand from the pedelecs forum that internal nylon gear replacement is a relatively easy at home job.

[Bonzo Banana]

More thanks.

"You don't get worn internal cogs that reduce efficiency either." (Bonzo banana.)

In my so far limited "research" I have noted references to geared hubs suffering from such wear within a few '000 miles. I doubt that can be repaired at home.
So a life-expectancy of less than 6 months?

Geared hub motors come in a lot of different sizes and having different gearing designs and most have a clutch that allows freewheeling with zero drag when the motor isn't on. It's still a relatively simple gearing design just 3 planetary gears. Like any such mechanism wear rates aren't just how often you use it but how you use it. Heavy riders and steep hills I guess would be major factors. It's important to get a model I would say that has easily found replacement gears and bearings. I'm sort of thinking 3-5 years of fairly regular use before you have to think about replacing internal parts for most geared hub motors and maybe 6-7 years for direct drive hub motors for fitting replacement bearings but they are my estimates based on reading forums and watching videos related to ebikes. For mid-drive the designs vary so enormously and many are used for off-road mountain bikes where they get a lot more abuse. Typically though they are a lot less reliable due to complexity and much more likely to be proprietary with parts not available to the end user for store bought ebikes. There are so many pros and cons between the different motor systems that one motor won't suit all but over 95% of ebikes are hub based according to Chinese industry statistics and they make most of them but there is clearly a cost factor involved there.

[djnotts]

Thanks for all the info and advice.