Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

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boblo
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by boblo »

I'll pour some more oil on...

I wouldn't ride a Thorn Rohloff even if free... I'd take one for free and sell it. I don't care for their stuff as it's a bit too agricultural for my taste and I prefer not to be lectured about what's 'best' which Robin/Andy et al are wont to do (ahem).

I've had a Spacepacker it was ace. I now use Laser Comps - Shirley the illegitimate child of the Spacepacker but lighter for solo use. If multi user, I have other stuff that's also light but a bit roomier than the Lasers.
Last edited by boblo on 7 Nov 2022, 12:28pm, edited 2 times in total.
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Jdsk wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 10:11pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 10:07pm The saunders basepacker has a tribute act too:

https://www.esvocampingshop.com/en/ligh ... sleedoorn/
If our Base-Packer 2 doesn't see us out I'll have a look at that.

: - )

Jonathan
Does the basecamp have any advantages over the spacepacker other than not having a curved single hooped pole: two upright poles might be viewed as more robust or just asthetically simpler?
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Jdsk
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by Jdsk »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 7 Nov 2022, 12:18pm
Jdsk wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 10:11pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 10:07pm The saunders basepacker has a tribute act too:

https://www.esvocampingshop.com/en/ligh ... sleedoorn/
If our Base-Packer 2 doesn't see us out I'll have a look at that.

: - )
Does the basecamp have any advantages over the spacepacker other than not having a curved single hooped pole: two upright poles might be viewed as more robust or just asthetically simpler?
I don't know. We bought our Base-Packer 2 in 1979 and hoops were rarer then. Several elements of the design have worked out just as well as we hoped: access from two sides (where will the sun rise?), sitting in the middle (has it stopped raining yet?), and the vast amount of space under cover in the two awnings so that everything doesn't have to be packed away after supper.

Jonathan
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pjclinch
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

Our most recent tentage acquisition is a Hille Anaris, not a million miles from either the Basecamp or the very first Hilleberg tent, the Keb. The Anaris goes up with trekking poles so it's really aimed at walkers (we have it for relatively lightweight but spacious wild camping up mountains where I'll have poles anyway) but it shows there's nothing wrong with the basic design.
The Spacepacker takes a porch-on-wind better as the pole supports the fabric from the ridge down to the ground, and more usefully you don't get a pole in the middle of each inner's door side, but none of that is deal-breaking stuff.

Pete.

[edited for typo)
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Nov 2022, 1:23pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 7 Nov 2022, 12:18pm
Jdsk wrote: 6 Nov 2022, 10:11pm
If our Base-Packer 2 doesn't see us out I'll have a look at that.

: - )
Does the basecamp have any advantages over the spacepacker other than not having a curved single hooped pole: two upright poles might be viewed as more robust or just asthetically simpler?
I don't know. We bought our Base-Packer 2 in 1979 and hoops were rarer then. Several elements of the design have worked out just as well as we hoped: access from two sides (where will the sun rise?), sitting in the middle (has it stopped raining yet?), and the vast amount of space under cover in the two awnings so that everything doesn't have to be packed away after supper.

Jonathan
I wonder if a modern tribute could merge both spacepacker and basepacker by using the modern alternative to a plain hoop, using straight (er) pole sections and elbows , avoiding the owner having to flex the aluminium hoop every pitch. Backpackinglight.com's Roger Caffins own diy tents use that pole style and he expects them to survive proper mountain weather...
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/64979/

The transverse 'arch' would be wider, so perhaps not as strong* unless you keep the uprights where the Base-Packer poles went..., which then loses the spacpacker advantage of them being less in the way?

* But the vango banshee 300 has quite a wide elbowed roof so hmmm.....?
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pjclinch
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

The only clear thing worng with a Spacepacker is the face-full-of-inner effect when lying down, which has pretty much been solved by the subsequent trend of inners to taper to a low "wall" rather than the ground (like the Akto, Scarps etc. etc.).
For the Perfect(ish) transverse hoop I would take a Tarptent Scarp 2 and make the porches Spacepacker sized, and a slighlty chunkier groundsheet. And red.

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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Why red?

Edit
The affordable (was being sold at 49pounds before black Friday price of 15% off 100!!??) gooutdoors bobcat one is perhaps another affordable modern tribute, gaining a transverse inner :) but losing the massive vestibule space :( presumably to allow use of cheaper material but keep a reasonable 2kg weight. Its predessor, the Blacks peak 3.1 is similar but bigger inner and less porch but in red (which I don't like).

Edit was showing wrong smylie I think
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 28 Nov 2022, 6:25pm, edited 2 times in total.
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pjclinch
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 26 Nov 2022, 10:29pm Why red?
'cause I like red!

My first red tent was a second choice to green but Tiso were end-of-lining the model (Hille Tarra) in red and it was a substantial saving.
But I got to really like it as it gives a warmer character to the inside on a gloomy day. Sounds daft, but that's actually the reason classic Force 10s are orange, it's nothing to do with visibility.

(I'm generally not camping places I need to be discreet, if I were I think I'd go for brown)

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iandusud
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by iandusud »

I've only just seen this thread and I'm somewhat taken aback by the negative comments re the Saunders Spacepacker. I have a Spacepacker Plus that is now 35 years old and is still used every year. The groundsheet is no longer as waterproof as it was, which is only apparent in the wettest of conditions, but this has been remedied buy making a footprint from a cheap tarp. We replaced it last year with a modern 3 man tunnel tent which gives us a lot more room and comfort (we're getting older) for not a lot more weight. However this in no way means that the Saunders is in any way a bad tent. If I was solo camping I would definitely take the Spacepacker. There was a negative comment about the alloy pole. In 35 years of use my one has been fine - what's the issue? Yes, the rubbers perish but are easily replaced either with new rubbers or cord. I fully accept that as advances in materials improve things that often modern equipment can be better BUT there is a huge negative aspect to replacing perfectly good stuff which is the environmental cost. So much perfectly good equipment gets replaced with the newest and latest unnecessarily IMO. For us buying a new tent to replace our Spacepacker was a big deal but we justify it by knowing that our holidays have a very low carbon footprint and the Spacepacker is still getting regular use by one of our sons.
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horizon
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by horizon »

I fully accept that as advances in materials improve things that often modern equipment can be better BUT there is a huge negative aspect to replacing perfectly good stuff
I think the problem is that the early Saunders and their contemporaries were using relatively new and untried materials. I've had at least two tents of this generation delaminate (even a Force Ten). So newer tents are actually a must and hopefully (as seems to be the case) lessons have been learnt.

Ironically, if you go back in time even further than the Spacepacker, you will find yourself in the lush pasturelands of cotton tents which do seem to last forever. I have a Vango Force Ten Mark 2 on which the flysheet (nylon?, whatever) delaminated while the inner (cotton) actually looks like new.

BTW I also have a Saunders Jetpacker which seems a million miles away from the older Fellpacker which I also have.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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pjclinch
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

horizon wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 7:27pm
I fully accept that as advances in materials improve things that often modern equipment can be better BUT there is a huge negative aspect to replacing perfectly good stuff
I think the problem is that the early Saunders and their contemporaries were using relatively new and untried materials. I've had at least two tents of this generation delaminate (even a Force Ten). So newer tents are actually a must and hopefully (as seems to be the case) lessons have been learnt.
I'm confused by this assertion. I can't think of anything on my Spacepacker that is laminated, so can't really see how it can delaminate...

Do you mean coatings peeling?
That's a different matter entirely, and is far more prone to happen with PU coats than the silicone elastomers pioneered by Saunders and Hilleberg and found on the Spacepacker fly. On a floor, well, you can wear out any tent floor. So you get a new one put in, and if the rest of the tent is in good order that's saved a load of unnecessary waste.

I've been using Spacepackers since the late 80s and have never before come across any assertion of systematic flaws in the fabrics used.

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horizon
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by horizon »

pjclinch wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 8:05am
Do you mean coatings peeling?

Pete.
Yes.
I've been using Spacepackers since the late 80s and have never before come across any assertion of systematic flaws in the fabrics used.
I was being unfair to Saunders. I have personal experience of coatings peeling in an Aquatite where the groundsheet peeled (not wore AFAICS) and a Force Ten where the flysheet peeled. AFAIK the Force Ten problem was fairly endemic though not universal so they presumably changed the material/supplier at various times. Neither of the two Saunders tents has peeled though the newer Jetpacker looks like a much more robust and effective material.

My apologies to Saunders and the owners of their tents. Unless of course any owners do complain of fabric degradation (not just peeling). I would just add that I was trying to be fair to Saunders in that they were AFAIK pioneers of the new lighter fabrics and some hiccups along the way were to be expected. If they haven't occurred then even more feathers in Mr Saunders' cap!
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pjclinch
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

horizon wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 9:28am I was trying to be fair to Saunders in that they were AFAIK pioneers of the new lighter fabrics and some hiccups along the way were to be expected. If they haven't occurred then even more feathers in Mr Saunders' cap!
The first time I came across Saunders tents was in an 80s Field & Trek catalogue, where IIRC there was a note that as they were so much lighter than everything else they would thus need to be handled with more care, but on closer examination this turned out to be worry rather than a real problem.

Most of the lightness came from using silicone elastomer coated flysheets, but despite being thinner and lighter these didn't suffer from the heat-ageing caused when applying PU coats so were actually substantially stronger than the alternatives! Saunders used to use small strips of the fabric as a demonstrator: try to rip this. You couldn't. Cut a starter tear with some scissors, and try and tear it further: you couldn't (Hilleberg were doing much the same).
PU coats seem to peel in time (look at the snowlock in most old rucksacks and it's quite possibly peeled), IME silicone elastomer doesn't.

The groundsheets were also thinner than most of the competition at the time but weren't particularly prone to peeling, and they're positively chunky by modern standards. Again, just a case of people being wary.

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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Ironically? Modern consumers aversion to the notion of having to do seamsealing themselves means silicone flysheets dont seem that common now even on medium price tents. Or is there another reason (I dont think its cost)?
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pjclinch
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Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 4:15pm Ironically? Modern consumers aversion to the notion of having to do seamsealing themselves means silicone flysheets dont seem that common now even on medium price tents. Or is there another reason (I dont think its cost)?
Silicone is quite common, but only on the outside (e.g., Terra Nova, MSR), so they can tape the seams. Bonkers to my mind, but I've seen quite often in forums people say that not waterproof without 10 minutes work is unacceptable, while presumably making the whole thing substantially weaker and shortening its working life to save those 10 minutes makes perfect sense... 🤷‍♂️

I understand that silicone coatings make fabrics much harder to work with, but you'll get some of that anyway if you have it one side. Perhaps this makes QA from Chinese factories harder?

Whatever, I'm happy to pay more for strength, not that interested in seam tape (which weakens the fabric even more if it's applied with heat).

Pete.
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