On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

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mattheus
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:40pm
mattheus wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:34pm
reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 2:47pm What I do know is there's a lot of waste in modern society and we're all more or less guilty of it to some degree.
So?
So,that's factual.
And the relevance is?

Always keen to learn!
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:06pm
reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:40pm
mattheus wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:34pm
So?
So,that's factual.
And the relevance is?

Always keen to learn!
I'm not in a teaching mode presently,so I'll say again,go figure it's not hard for a clever chappie such as yourself!
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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PH
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by PH »

horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am AIUI, recycling is much more problematic for lithium-ion batteries (mainly due to handling issues).
The three R's of the environmental mantra are Reduce, Reuse and Recycle, in that order, with a huge emphasis of the first. Critics like to jump to the third and least relevant, Why is that? Are they just looking for an argument they can win?

Reduce - I don't know how many car journeys an E-bike has to replace before the environmental impact is reduced, I suspect it's a tiny proportion of it's potential. I also expect it comes out well whatever else it replaces, public transport to a lesser degree, most other leisure activities certainly. Yes I know every one on these discussions has one or more people telling us it'd be better if those able to cycle without assistance did so. So what? Even accepting that in it's entirety, which I don't, decades of trying to encourage more people to do so has failed.
Then there's the increase in range from the same materials, small increments, but reductions in consumption none the less. Plus all the R&D going into alternatives to lithium...

Reuse - I'm expecting my E-bike battery to last 50,000 miles, lets throw in a 20% margin for error and call it 40,000. At that point it won't be dead, it'll still retain 80% capacity and it should be another 20,000 miles before it's down to 60%. At that point it would no longer be of use to me for my current usage (Though considering I have two batteries, it's likely they'd have passed to someone else before they get to 120,000 miles) Even then, they'll still be useable for someone making shorter trips, there's plenty of people who'd still get use from a battery capable of 20 miles a day or even 10. At that point, I understand there's still demand for low capacity cells, for the likes of storage from wind and solar generation, but by the time mine get there who knows what technologies will be in demand.

Recycling - The last resort, currently possible but not commercially viable, at least that's my understanding. It is apparently improving, at such a rate as some investors are buying and storing low capacity cells in the expectation that in the not too distant future it will be viable.
Dingdong
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Dingdong »

Cycling through the nearest big town on Monday, I was genuinely surprised at the number of electric vehicles in the centre. Various silent running cars passed me by, a few youngsters on electric scooters and outside our local pub, nearly 100% of the bikes were electric. The car park was almost empty. Fair enough, we live in a relatively affluent part of the country, but it was a pleasure to behold.

This is a massive sea change. That's a lot of petrol driven journeys cut out of the equation right there. And whether I'm imagining it or not, the air definitely seemed cleaner, more breathable (since COVID I've developed low level asthma). Every journey not in a petrol driven car is a bonus. I like Elon Musk's idea of fleets of electric trucks going up and down the country autonomously. Scania in Sweden have several proofs of concept, and that would take an enormous load of co2 out of the environment.

Why governments don't give everyone who wants one an electric bike is beyond me. I've replaced every single shopping trip previously done in a car with my electric bike. 100% of my commuter needs are done by ebike or regular bicycle, and every short journey now, to the local shops or pub is on an ebike. I'm at the point where I just see my car as a financial burden I can do without.

Anyone feel the same way? Surely any sensible government would be helping us along that path?
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horizon
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by horizon »

PH wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 6:31pm
horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am AIUI, recycling is much more problematic for lithium-ion batteries (mainly due to handling issues).
The three R's of the environmental mantra are Reduce, Reuse and Recycle, in that order, with a huge emphasis of the first. Critics like to jump to the third and least relevant, Why is that?
I was really just expanding on reohn2's point about batteries not being recycled but not being able to reassure him on lithium-ion. What you said about reduce and reuse I found very positive.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:49pm
PH wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 6:31pm
horizon wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am AIUI, recycling is much more problematic for lithium-ion batteries (mainly due to handling issues).
The three R's of the environmental mantra are Reduce, Reuse and Recycle, in that order, with a huge emphasis of the first. Critics like to jump to the third and least relevant, Why is that?
I was really just expanding on reohn2's point about batteries not being recycled but not being able to reassure him on lithium-ion.
Sorry,it was only because I wasn't aware of the mechanics of recycling Lithium-ion batteries.
What you said about reduce and reuse I found very positive
Me too.
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francovendee
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by francovendee »

Having recently bought a kit to add assistance I'm hesitating to fit it. Not because I can't do it but because by nature I can be lazy.
My intent is to use the assist as little as possible but my laziness will kick in and I'll put less and less effort in.
I'm glad these weren't around when I was young, I've had 70 years without temptation.
mattheus
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:22pm
mattheus wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:06pm
reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:40pm

So,that's factual.
And the relevance is?

Always keen to learn!
I'm not in a teaching mode presently,so I'll say again,go figure it's not hard for a clever chappie such as yourself!
I figured out:

Someone stated that it's a good idea to avoid pollution from batteries if we can, but you got all defensive and threw out the usual "yes but what about ..." nonsense we regularly hear from polluters.

How did I do?
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Cowsham
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Cowsham »

francovendee wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 8:32am Having recently bought a kit to add assistance I'm hesitating to fit it. Not because I can't do it but because by nature I can be lazy.
My intent is to use the assist as little as possible but my laziness will kick in and I'll put less and less effort in.
I'm glad these weren't around when I was young, I've had 70 years without temptation.
Keep your favorite light bike light and put the kit on a donor bike.

My favorite bike is not my lightest but I really enjoy my cube acid mtb which is in road/trail/commuter mode. I can sit on it all day long so instead of electrifying it I bought a second hand bike (town/commuter ) then bought the kit to fit it.

The whole deal stands me about £600.

Throw off the amount of I've saved by using it for journeys I'd have normally made by car ( being too tired from commuting etc on my cube ) and it stands me to date about £400 -- I only got it in August. I recon if the weather stays mildish over the winter I'll have it paid for by spring.

The kit can make a heavy agricultural bike feel light nimble and enjoyable to ride.
I am here. Where are you?
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Cugel
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Cugel »

mattheus wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 9:00am
reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:22pm
mattheus wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:06pm
And the relevance is?

Always keen to learn!
I'm not in a teaching mode presently,so I'll say again,go figure it's not hard for a clever chappie such as yourself!
I figured out:

Someone stated that it's a good idea to avoid pollution from batteries if we can, but you got all defensive and threw out the usual "yes but what about ..." nonsense we regularly hear from polluters.

How did I do?
Although an e-bike is seductive, its attractions are not just the ability to switch the motor to fool-gaz so you can have a rest. In fact, whenever I switch my motor to fool-gaz (which I've anyway limited to 150 watts) I find myself trying harder not less. For a start, the setting to get 150 watts means I have to output at least that much to get it. Less effort from me scales down the amount the motor gives, in a linear fashion.

In practice, I use the motor to get over long steep hills faster and for nothing else, since I'm going over 25kph a lot anyway if not on a significant hill.

What you do with an e-bike is primarily determined by your attitudes and habits when cycling. If you like to try hard because you always have, you'll continue to do so. All that happens is that you get wherever you're going faster if you go over a lot of hills. If you really don't want to try hard but pootle about, you can - but without running out of energy so soon, so you can pootle farther.

I never really get why anyone would want an e-bike so they can act like a motorcyclist. Surely you'd just get a motorbike for that?

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
jgurney
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by jgurney »

horizon wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 12:48pm
Well, extraordinarily, that five years has now passed .... So, how did the prediction fare?

Well, it's obviously way out as there are plenty of non-electric bikes still being sold. But the ebike phenomenon does still plough on. I think what I had in mind is that battery technology would improve exponentially - lighter, cheaper, longer lasting. AFAIK, that hasn't happened,
Quite - they would need to have much better range, be lighter and ideally be cheaper to appeal to many existing cyclists.

Taking myself as an example, I just can't see any use for an EAPC as they currently come. The potential benefits of one appear to be:
  • reduced effort required
  • reduced journey time
  • hills being less of an obstacle
For my short local journeys, the effort involved is not an issue, any reduction in journey time from an EAPC would be insignificant and there are no hills.

For the journey to work (8.5 miles each way), again the effort is not an issue anyway and there are no hills. On those parts of the route where it is feasible, I already tend to pedal at 13 - 17mph, so I doubt there would be any significant speed gain.

For the above (most of my cycling mileage) buying an EAPC would just mean I was spending money to get less exercise.

For my longer leisure journeys, current EAPC's don't have the range needed, so I would sometimes end up pedaling with a discharged battery and useless motor as extra weight, or hanging about awaiting it recharging.

If I lived somewhere with lots of hills, and either the range was greater or the battery plus motor were light enough that hauling them around once the battery ran out was not an issue, that could be a different matter.
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 9:00am
reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:22pm
mattheus wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:06pm
And the relevance is?

Always keen to learn!
I'm not in a teaching mode presently,so I'll say again,go figure it's not hard for a clever chappie such as yourself!
I figured out:

Someone stated that it's a good idea to avoid pollution from batteries if we can, but you got all defensive and threw out the usual "yes but what about ..." nonsense we regularly hear from polluters.

How did I do?
TBH you never do very well,as I feel sure you'll claim I don't.

My point was,L/ion batteries are but one pollutant among many.
I mentioned AA/AAA batteries as an example.
I am a polluter just like the rest of the people on this forum,including you,so please don't claim any holier points,we all pollute to a greater or lesser extent.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

jgurney
You're classic example of someone who doesn't need or want a pedelec,yet.
But there may,I feel sure,come a day when you will be glad of it.

FWIW,I see many people mostly retired 65+year olds riding pedelecs who perhaps would never contemplate riding at all without electric assistance.
Last edited by reohn2 on 3 Dec 2022, 9:14am, edited 2 times in total.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
mattheus
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 1:47pm
mattheus wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 9:00am
reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 4:22pm

I'm not in a teaching mode presently,so I'll say again,go figure it's not hard for a clever chappie such as yourself!
I figured out:

Someone stated that it's a good idea to avoid pollution from batteries if we can, but you got all defensive and threw out the usual "yes but what about ..." nonsense we regularly hear from polluters.

How did I do?
TBH you never do very well,as I feel sure you'll claim I don't.

My point was,L/ion batteries are but one pollutant among many.
I mentioned AA/AAA batteries as an example.
I am a polluter just like the rest of the people on this forum,including you
,so please don't claim any holier points,we all pollute to a greater or lesser extent.
QED. Thanks.
jimlews
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by jimlews »

reohn2 wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 8:21am
jimlews wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 4:12pm The only difference that I can see between the "stink wheel" devices of former times
and todays electric bicycles is that the pollution they cause has been deferred to the
end of the battery life. And then there is the slave labour mining the rare elements required
to produce them...

What of all those use once then discard or rechargable AA,AAA batteries in use in almost every household in the land,if not the world at the end of their usable life,used in various battery powered consumables such as TV remotes,flashlights and bike lights,radios ,etc,etc.
Indeed !
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