Witnessing the end of the NHS

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ambodach
Posts: 1023
Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by ambodach »

Re charging rich patients in Scotland.
It is SNP policy to have the NHS free at point of use.
Everything else is allegation and nobody can pinpoint exactly where this came from so the assumption is that it is simply BBC spin. I no longer believe anything from BBC Scotland as their bias is so blatent.
irc
Posts: 5189
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by irc »

ambodach wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 1:04pm Re charging rich patients in Scotland.
It is SNP policy to have the NHS free at point of use.
Everything else is allegation and nobody can pinpoint exactly where this came from so the assumption is that it is simply BBC spin. I no longer believe anything from BBC Scotland as their bias is so blatent.
Just because you don't like it doesn't wish it away. The SNP accept the meeting took place. They have an iron grip on public bodies in Scotland. If the BBC did not have solid proof there would have been a statement from the NHS and SNP denying charges were discussed.

What the SNP actually said was

"The Scottish Government said the meeting was between a small number of NHS directors."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... million-vn

But I guess you must be an SNP supporter. So I won't convince you.

Next you'll be telling us about the value for money and speedy ferry replacement programme.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Psamathe »

The "discussing charging" is something I don't get too concerned about (as long as it's rejected). NHS is in crisis and I'd be expecting managers to be thinking "off-the-wall" and be prepared to raise all sorts of daft ideas in the basis that one might prove helpful.

Plus, in England not all NHS services are free at point of need. I have to pay for my dental treatment (under NHS). If I go to A&E under my own transport I have to pay parking (public transport is not viable, particularly as you may not get seen until 05:00am).

I can also envisage situations where charging could be justified e.g. where an elderly patient is medically OK to be discharged but there is no care available because local Council is not providing needed services - there might be a good case for charging the Council for the patients hospital place that is not medically needed as the NHS are in effect then providing services that are the Council's responsibility which is also impacting the medical care that NHS can provide others in need.

Ian
slowster
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Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by slowster »

Psamathe wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 2:07pm NHS is in crisis and I'd be expecting managers to be thinking "off-the-wall" and be prepared to raise all sorts of daft ideas in the basis that one might prove helpful.
I think the heads of the NHS would not do that (especially not formally with meeting minutes) unless they had received instructions to do so from their political masters. Charging for treatment is so politically sensitive that it would be off limits for discussion precisely because of the headlines we have seen. I would bet that the instructions from the politicians made no explicit reference to considering charging, and instead would have been couched in plausibly deniable language, such as 'thinking off-the-wall', but everyone involved would have understood their meaning. I don't think which party was in power would make much difference to that, other than that the Tories would be a bit more wary of doing it/try harder to keep it secret, because their management of the NHS has long been one of their biggest electoral vulnerabilities.
Debs
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Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

ambodach
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Joined: 15 Mar 2011, 6:45pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by ambodach »

irc wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 1:19pm
ambodach wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 1:04pm Re charging rich patients in Scotland.
It is SNP policy to have the NHS free at point of use.
Everything else is allegation and nobody can pinpoint exactly where this came from so the assumption is that it is simply BBC spin. I no longer believe anything from BBC Scotland as their bias is so blatent.
Just because you don't like it doesn't wish it away. The SNP accept the meeting took place. They have an iron grip on public bodies in Scotland. If the BBC did not have solid proof there would have been a statement from the NHS and SNP denying charges were discussed.

What the SNP actually said was

"The Scottish Government said the meeting was between a small number of NHS directors."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... million-vn

But I guess you must be an SNP supporter. So I won't convince you.

Next you'll be telling us about the value for money and speedy ferry replacement programme.
I am not an SNP member but do not approve of Westminster ruling us.
The charging issue appears ti be a suggestion from an individual at a Borders Health Board meeting who is probably in that area a Tory and was laughed out at the meeting.
The ferry issue is largely down to the shipbuilder and the yard would certainly have shut down otherwise with the resultant loss of skills and jobs. The overrun in money pales into insignificance when compared to some of the dodgy deals at Westminster but that is of no interest to anyone and is just shrugged off.
We will obviously never agree on politics.
irc
Posts: 5189
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by irc »

ambodach wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 6:50pm
irc wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 1:19pm
ambodach wrote: 25 Nov 2022, 1:04pm Re charging rich patients in Scotland.
It is SNP policy to have the NHS free at point of use.
Everything else is allegation and nobody can pinpoint exactly where this came from so the assumption is that it is simply BBC spin. I no longer believe anything from BBC Scotland as their bias is so blatent.
Just because you don't like it doesn't wish it away. The SNP accept the meeting took place. They have an iron grip on public bodies in Scotland. If the BBC did not have solid proof there would have been a statement from the NHS and SNP denying charges were discussed.

What the SNP actually said was

"The Scottish Government said the meeting was between a small number of NHS directors."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... million-vn

But I guess you must be an SNP supporter. So I won't convince you.

Next you'll be telling us about the value for money and speedy ferry replacement programme.
I am not an SNP member but do not approve of Westminster ruling us.
The charging issue appears ti be a suggestion from an individual at a Borders Health Board meeting who is probably in that area a Tory and was laughed out at the meeting.
The ferry issue is largely down to the shipbuilder and the yard would certainly have shut down otherwise with the resultant loss of skills and jobs. The overrun in money pales into insignificance when compared to some of the dodgy deals at Westminster but that is of no interest to anyone and is just shrugged off.
We will obviously never agree on politics.

Where do you get the idea of it was the borders Tories?
".According to the minutes, the meeting began with an update about "recent conversations" with NHS Scotland chief executive Caroline Lamb."

Comes right from the top of NHS Scotland.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63659754

As for the ferries. The SNP were warned of the risks but went ahead anyway. A shocking waste of taxpayers money for a SNP photo vop.

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scott ... ks-1532755
Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Biospace »

axel_knutt wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 12:31pm Anyone interested in the woes of the NHS could do worse than follow Steve Black, a data scientist specialising in healthcare who Tweets as @sib313. He gets a steady stream of NHS staff and other usual suspects coming at him with the tired tropes of more money, more staff etc, and he systematically pulls them to pieces with reams of data, much of it the NHS's own data. Hospital staff numbers are going up and up, productivity down and down. He insists that the problem is incompetence not austerity or staff shortage, like increasing staffing levels in the wrong places, bed blocking through lack of care system investment, repeated attempts at fixing problems without understanding them first, etc.
It's interesting to hear about productivity, in juxtaposition to this, https://www.england.nhs.uk/2019/04/staf ... ity-grows/

I would agree with Steve Black that it's (very) poor management. Those on the shop floor appear to be working extraordinarily hard with little respect from above, from what I hear and have observed.

We should stop ignoring that Germany has roughly 3x as many beds for its population than we do for spending a less than 1.5 times more than we do. I'm not arguing for private enterprise within our health system, just that we look to see why we're getting so much, so wrong.
axel_knutt
Posts: 2869
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by axel_knutt »

axel_knutt wrote: 21 Nov 2022, 6:40pm
axel_knutt wrote: 20 Nov 2022, 12:31pm Anyone interested in the woes of the NHS could do worse than follow Steve Black, a data scientist specialising in healthcare who Tweets as @sib313.
A good example here: https://twitter.com/sib313/status/1594706655635476482
And another one: https://twitter.com/sib313/status/1598986699383504896
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Debs
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Joined: 19 May 2017, 7:05pm
Location: Powys

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Debs »

Biospace
Posts: 1990
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Biospace »

I’ve worked continuously for the National Health Service since October 1994, and this is the week I finally leave...

I’m leaving because I just can’t do it any moreIn the end, it was the “Bs” that got me: the bean counters, the bureaucracy and the BS.

There has been an explosion in the number of managers over the same period, and the message trickles down from the health secretary through their endless layers...

I could go on for hours on more, from poor recruitment systems to endless “essential” training”. But perhaps worst of all is NHS England’s pointless internal market, where again, thousands of staff are employed so that one part of the system can pay another part of the system
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ureaucracy

Dr Sara Porter, clinical psychologist
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bikes4two
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by bikes4two »

  • I couldn't bear to read all of this thread (too depressing) so apologies if this aspect of the topic has been broached already, but it seems to me that a lot of the NHS problems would be eased if there weren't so many 'unwell' people.
  • Has there ever been an analysis of why so many are needing the NHS's services and how many of the causes of ill health could have been mitigated by better education and personal self control (I'me thinking drug/alchohol abuse and obesity to name but a few)
.
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Jdsk »

bikes4two wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:50pm
  • I couldn't bear to read all of this thread (too depressing) so apologies if this aspect of the topic has been broached already, but it seems to me that a lot of the NHS problems would be eased if there weren't so many 'unwell' people.
  • Has there ever been an analysis of why so many are needing the NHS's services and how many of the causes of ill health could have been mitigated by better education and personal self control (I'me thinking drug/alchohol abuse and obesity to name but a few)
.
Yes, we know a vast amount about the causes of disease and how much is avoidable.

Some of that is avoidable through personal decisions and some of it through factors beyond the control of individuals.

Jonathan

PS: And both of those are much the same in similar countries that don't have an NHS or anything like it.
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 11:07pm
bikes4two wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 10:50pm
  • I couldn't bear to read all of this thread (too depressing) so apologies if this aspect of the topic has been broached already, but it seems to me that a lot of the NHS problems would be eased if there weren't so many 'unwell' people.
  • Has there ever been an analysis of why so many are needing the NHS's services and how many of the causes of ill health could have been mitigated by better education and personal self control (I'me thinking drug/alchohol abuse and obesity to name but a few)
.
Yes, we know a vast amount about the causes of disease and how much is avoidable.

Some of that is avoidable through personal decisions and some of it through factors beyond the control of individuals.

Jonathan

PS: And both of those are much the same in similar countries that don't have an NHS or anything like it.
I don't know how much of the burden of the NHS is due to poor lifestyle choices, but if my own family is anything to go by, the two factors that made my own family regulars at the GP's surgery or inpatients at the hospital have been old age and (non lifestyle-related) cancer. Nothing much you can do to avoid either of those, really. I suspect old age is the big one. The older we get, the more we rely on the NHS. My mother's list of daily pills is phenomenal. For various conditions, none of which are due to being fat or smoking. She just has a very old body that isn't meant to have lasted this long and is being propped up by medication.
Stradageek
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: Witnessing the end of the NHS

Post by Stradageek »

Having done much research and talked to a midwife a radiologist and an A&E consultant (all close relatives) I can confirm that the 'ageing population' argument for the current NHS problems is government spin and almost complete bunkum.

The NHS is struggling for funding because of:

a) PPI repayments which would be much much cheaper as government loans (the government wanted to get buildings loans and maintenance off the books to make the economy look better)

b) Staff shortages (because of low pay) meaning that the departments my relatives work in are up to 50% staffed by agency workers at twice their salary (plus the profit made by the agencies).

c) Mopping up private hospital disasters - transfers from private hospitals when things go wrong and the private hospitals can't cope

d) The profit taken by private contractors who are not (as we are constantly told) more efficient than the incumbent services.

e) The estimated £10bn cost of administering these private contractors - similar to the eye watering cost of administering medical insurance claims which is the main reason US healthcare is so expensive and inefficient.

I have another friend who is a senior administrator in the NHS who says that he is paid a handsome salary with one simple directive 'privatise everything you can and do it now' no cost benefit analysis is required.

And as for the inability to get a GP appointment, my A&E consultant says that basically, during COVID, GP's got used to doing less work and still getting paid handsomely so they have kept to their shorter hours with the obvious result that everyone is turning up in A&E instead.

The Michelle Mone scandal says it all, £69m profit, untaxed (moved offshore) and £29m of this given to Michelle Mone who has had a Caribbean honeymoon, a new yacht and a new house for each of her children at OUR expense.
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