Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

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gazza_d
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Joined: 30 Oct 2016, 8:20am

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by gazza_d »

Just to answer Thirdcrank...

I follow Mikey on twitter and watch a lot of his videos on YouTube. I'd also read this thread in it's entirety before posting. I'm not entirely sure of your point.

I don't stand on a corner and stop drivers going down the wrong side of the road like Mikey, but the similarity that we both report drivers stands. Do you just think it's Mikey being a "grass" because he goes beyond what most do? Or is it the reporting by anyone that makes them "grasses"?

I had a long chat yesterday with one of the police officers who runs the online reporting service for my local force.

We didn't speak about Mike specifically, but the jist is that forces are grateful for people reporting as they appreciate they can't be everywhere. We did touch on clear breaches of law such as going the wrong side of keep lefts though, and he was fully supportive of reporting those kinds of incidents for intelligence as well as potential immediate prosecution for the offence.

Whilst I wouldn't have the balls to go full gandalf like Mike, I do support what he does and reiterate that I think he is doing a good and just thing. He isn't entrapping drivers or making them do illegal stuff just for the clicks and notoriety like some seem to think..
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by thirdcrank »

gazza_d wrote: 1 Nov 2022, 6:42am Just to answer Thirdcrank...

I follow Mikey on twitter and watch a lot of his videos on YouTube. I'd also read this thread in it's entirety before posting. I'm not entirely sure of your point.

I don't stand on a corner and stop drivers going down the wrong side of the road like Mikey, but the similarity that we both report drivers stands. Do you just think it's Mikey being a "grass" because he goes beyond what most do? Or is it the reporting by anyone that makes them "grasses"?

I had a long chat yesterday with one of the police officers who runs the online reporting service for my local force.

We didn't speak about Mike specifically, but the jist is that forces are grateful for people reporting as they appreciate they can't be everywhere. We did touch on clear breaches of law such as going the wrong side of keep lefts though, and he was fully supportive of reporting those kinds of incidents for intelligence as well as potential immediate prosecution for the offence.

Whilst I wouldn't have the balls to go full gandalf like Mike, I do support what he does and reiterate that I think he is doing a good and just thing. He isn't entrapping drivers or making them do illegal stuff just for the clicks and notoriety like some seem to think..
I support people who report offenders to the authorities, especially when they are prepared to testify (get involved is an expression I often use) and camera footage can provide excellent evidence.

In the case discussed in this thread, the alleged offending involved driving on the wrong side of a traffic island. That's an absolute offence under s 36 RTA 1988 (failing to comply with a traffic sign) and potentially an offence under s 3 or 4 careless/ dangerous driving. The potential dangers include eg a pedestrian crossing the carriageway and not anticipating a vehicle being driven unlawfully from their left or a cyclist passing the island correctly and meeting a motor vehicle being driven unlawfully on its wrong side of the island.

Camera footage can corroborate a witness's evidence, but as I often say, it cuts both ways. Although it's wrong to say a camera never lies, video footage can provide "the whole truth" required by the witness's oath/ affirmation.

Trying to keep this brief, no matter what Mr Erp said in evidence or subsequently, the material which should have corrorated his testimony tends to show that his actions contributed to the very dangers for which the driver was prosecuted. We'll never know what motivated the jury's verdict.
==============================================
PS Here's an example of what I see as good dashcam footage. I don't know it's status in that it was shown on regional TV news almost immediately but it's also appeared in the SY police appeals. Anyway, it's in the public domain

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/loc ... s-25244973

As the driver with the dashcam arrives in the traffic flow behind the horses, I presume they are independent, rather than part of an escorting convoy.

If this was contested at court, the cameraperson's evidence would include something like
I was driving along xxxx road when I saw two people riding horses along the carriageway ahead of me. I saw that the horses appeared to be behaving normally. The road at this point is a single carriageway and I saw that its available width was reduced by parked vehicles. I decided to drive behind the horses at a safe distance until there was a safe opportunity to overtake. I then saw a lorry coming towards us. I have no means of measuring the speed of the lorry but I saw it appeared to be being driven too fast for the conditions. I saw that one of the horses wheeled round in the carriageway and I saw that its rider's leg hit the lorry (continues in the same vein)
I've not found it elsewhere but the regional TV report also had side-on footage from some sort of private security camera and it showed the HGV barreling through (not a legal analysis,)

Now, unless that were to be a guilty plea from the outset, I'd expect the prosecution to analyse the footage from the dashcam and security camera to obtain the lorry's speed but the footage seems unimpeachable to me. The driver with the dashcam did nothing for the defence to try to attack.
hemo
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Location: West Sussex

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by hemo »

I don't disagree with MvE's reporting but the standing in front of vehicles and enforcing the cars to go back is not the publics job, his actions may result in an accident occurring behind the offender then he would be held accountable.
He certainly puts himself in dangers way.
A camera needs placing at the crossing to catch the lawbreakers automatically as this is a hot spot for offending.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by mattheus »

hemo wrote: 1 Nov 2022, 11:09am I don't disagree with MvE's reporting but the standing in front of vehicles and enforcing the cars to go back is not the publics job, his actions may result in an accident occurring behind the offender then he would be held accountable.
He certainly puts himself in dangers way.
Good for him! If only more people were prepared to selflessly do that, for the good of others, the world might be a better place.

I don't understand this:
"his actions may result in an accident occurring behind the offender"
hemo
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Joined: 16 Nov 2017, 5:40pm
Location: West Sussex

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by hemo »

Quite simply gesturing for someone to reverse may lead to an unattentative wound up driver hitting another vehicle or even worse not see a cyclist or pedestrian and hitting them, it only needs a chancer on a bike or moped to try and nip by or someone to cross the road behind the ensuing mayhem. Directing traffic is not the publics remit.
Bonefishblues
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Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by Bonefishblues »

These two viewpoints are irreconcilable, the arguments have been rehearsed and re-rehearsed on thread, but in an attempt at summary:

He is not a grass, nor is he a great cyclist. Everyone agrees that the detection and reporting of traffic offences is a good thing.
One contingent is supportive of direct action by MvE, one is not.

That's about it, I think :)
mattheus
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Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by mattheus »

Bonefishblues wrote: 1 Nov 2022, 1:57pm These two viewpoints are irreconcilable, the arguments have been rehearsed and re-rehearsed on thread, but in an attempt at summary:

He is not a grass, nor is he a great cyclist. Everyone agrees that the detection and reporting of traffic offences is a good thing.
One contingent is supportive of direct action by MvE, one is not.

That's about it, I think :)
Yes. Fair summary!

(Although I find some of the nuances in the bold bit interesting ... but we've probably heard most of the views available ... )
jimster99
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Joined: 18 Jun 2012, 7:00pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by jimster99 »

I've just discovered CyclingMikey, and at first I thought what he is doing is hilarious and I supported it. However, on further reflection and having watched quite a few of his videos, I think his overall effect on society is net negative.

The main problem as I see it is that the only purpose of his youtube channel is to humiliate, out of all proportion to the offences detected. I would guess some of his "victims" have likely suffered great embarrassment or perhaps even career damage etc.

Obvoiusly he does meet some really vile people, and I don't have any sympathy for breaking the law or endangering cyclists, but many of his victims are just normal people. We haven't had humiliation punishments in this country for over a century and for good reason. Yet CyclingMikey is electronically enforcing his own equivalent of tarring and feathering or putting people in the stocks.

I also would query whether his videos are compliant with the Data Protection Act / GDPR in that he is clearly processing personal data, and I'm not sure what DPA justification he would seek to rely on for doing this, especially as he appears to be monetising the videos so is arguably using them in a commercial sense.

And the second, less important, issue I have is his blocking of traffic, causing obstructions to other innocent road users. He regularly blocks cars, sometimes blocking the road for 20 minutes or more. I can't imagine how many traffic jams he has personally caused doing this.

Rant over!
the snail
Posts: 333
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by the snail »

jimster99 wrote: 2 Dec 2022, 10:06pm He regularly blocks cars, sometimes blocking the road for 20 minutes or more. I can't imagine how many traffic jams he has personally caused doing this.

Rant over!
It is the lawless driver that is blocking the road, not Mikey. All the driver has to do is reverse back a few metres, and there is no blockage.
jimster99
Posts: 210
Joined: 18 Jun 2012, 7:00pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by jimster99 »

the snail wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 8:31pm It is the lawless driver that is blocking the road, not Mikey. All the driver has to do is reverse back a few metres, and there is no blockage.
I disagree. Members of the public are simply not permitted to block vehicles even if driving on the wrong side of the road. See section 137 of the Highways Act 1980 - up to a year in the clink. Not to mention his DPA and public order offences.

I'm actually kind of surprised the police haven't had at least a quiet word with him.
millimole
Posts: 908
Joined: 18 Feb 2007, 5:41pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by millimole »


jimster99 wrote: I also would query whether his videos are compliant with the Data Protection Act / GDPR in that he is clearly processing personal data, and I'm not sure what DPA justification he would seek to rely on for doing this, especially as he appears to be monetising the videos so is arguably using them in a commercial sense.
Leaving aside the monetisation - in a general sense - there is no general right to privacy in public spaces in Britain. GDPR does not apply.

If you, or your property, can be photographed from a public space then that is perfectly legal.
This is both a blessing and a curse to society, individuals and photographers.

There are some specific exceptions to the general rule (MoD premises I believe etc) but these don't apply to Mike's activities.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
the snail
Posts: 333
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by the snail »

jimster99 wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 12:50am
the snail wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 8:31pm It is the lawless driver that is blocking the road, not Mikey. All the driver has to do is reverse back a few metres, and there is no blockage.
I disagree. Members of the public are simply not permitted to block vehicles even if driving on the wrong side of the road. See section 137 of the Highways Act 1980 - up to a year in the clink. Not to mention his DPA and public order offences.

I'm actually kind of surprised the police haven't had at least a quiet word with him.
Well the police don't seem to agree with you, numerous drivers have been fined/prosecuted, afaik Mikey has not had so much as a warning. I don't think your reading of the law is correct in any case. Public order? Mikey is remarkably calm and polite at all times.
Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by Bonefishblues »

the snail wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 10:33am
jimster99 wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 12:50am
the snail wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 8:31pm It is the lawless driver that is blocking the road, not Mikey. All the driver has to do is reverse back a few metres, and there is no blockage.
I disagree. Members of the public are simply not permitted to block vehicles even if driving on the wrong side of the road. See section 137 of the Highways Act 1980 - up to a year in the clink. Not to mention his DPA and public order offences.

I'm actually kind of surprised the police haven't had at least a quiet word with him.
Well the police don't seem to agree with you, numerous drivers have been fined/prosecuted, afaik Mikey has not had so much as a warning. I don't think your reading of the law is correct in any case. Public order? Mikey is remarkably calm and polite at all times.
Public Order crimes are those which involve acts that interfere with the operations of society and the ability of people to function efficiently.

They have nothing to do with being calm and polite. cf also Climate Change protests.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36764
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by thirdcrank »

MelW wrote: 14 Oct 2022, 5:42am Unfortunately and quite bizarrely the driver Paul Lyon-Maris who drove into CyclingMikey was yesterday acquitted by a jury at Southwark Crown Court of dangerous driving and common assault. However he was fined £146 for disregarding a keep left traffic sign which he had earlier admitted to.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ivers.html

https://road.cc/content/news/sir-ian-mc ... ult-296569

The jury verdict sends totally the wrong message to drivers who consider it acceptable to use their vehicles as weapons. Shocking.
It's often informative to read a thread. The suggestion here being that a jury somehow got it wrong.

I wonder if those receiving this message who may take it into account when taking decisions in future will be the police and CPS. It would be interesting to hear from anybody who keeps up-to-speed with this chap whether any new similar cases have resulted in prosecutions
jimster99
Posts: 210
Joined: 18 Jun 2012, 7:00pm

Re: Mike van Erp, great cyclist or grass?

Post by jimster99 »

millimole wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 8:38amLeaving aside the monetisation - in a general sense - there is no general right to privacy in public spaces in Britain.
So the right to privacy that you mention flows out of the HRA and is a completely different animal to the DPA/GDPR. So yes, there is no right to privacy in a public space as you say. But that tells you little as to whether he is complying with his obligations as a data controller.
Bonefishblues wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 10:46am Public Order crimes are those which involve acts that interfere with the operations of society and the ability of people to function efficiently. They have nothing to do with being calm and polite. cf also Climate Change protests.
Public order offences have become inappropriately broad over the years. The police have ample grounds to nick him for a public order offence, if they wished. The reason they haven't is that they don't want to, for a variety of obvious reasons.
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