Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Specifically for cycle touring subjects & questions
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Tent manufacturers collectively haven't exactly done a good job of explaining seam sealing. As demonstrated by my following question: why can't seams be sealed at the factory? Why does the end purchaser have to do it at home? I think it's probably this "unfinishedness" that people are objecting to, along with doubt in their own abilities.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

pjclinch wrote: 30 Nov 2022, 8:29pm....
Silicone is quite common, but only on the outside (e.g., Terra Nova, MSR), so they can tape the seams. Bonkers to my mind, but I've seen quite often in forums people say that not waterproof without 10 minutes work is unacceptable, while presumably making the whole thing substantially weaker and shortening its working life to save those 10 minutes makes perfect sense... 🤷‍♂️

I understand that silicone coatings make fabrics much harder to work with, but you'll get some of that anyway if you have it one side. Perhaps this makes QA from Chinese factories harder?

Whatever, I'm happy to pay more for strength, not that interested in seam tape (which weakens the fabric even more if it's applied with heat).

Pete.
https://durstongear.com/materials claims a 'best of all possible worlds'  polyester fabric with outer silicone  elastomer  coat but the inner coated with a polyurethane family member called PEU which apparently doesn't significantly? weaken the fabric like usual PU. He also claims plain uncoated nylon fabric's strength advantage over plain uncoated polyester is overstated/irrelevant if the polyester fabric is chosen properly.

His x mid tents look interesting for waterboiling hikers but perhaps not enough vestibule space for cyclists (who might  like the bell ends to retain their normal storage function).

EDITed to add uncoated adjective for clarification.
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 13 Dec 2022, 4:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 9:19am Tent manufacturers collectively haven't exactly done a good job of explaining seam sealing. As demonstrated by my following question: why can't seams be sealed at the factory? Why does the end purchaser have to do it at home? I think it's probably this "unfinishedness" that people are objecting to, along with doubt in their own abilities.
Seam sealing is seen as a Good Thing that people are very used to seeing as a fundamental Given on waterproof kit (most obviously jackets), but in reality it's a two-edged sword on a tent. As typically applied by machine it uses a hot process to bond it to the fabric and that heat ages the fabric, weakening it. It also adds weight and bulk to the finished product.
Another problem is silicone elastomer coats are too slippy for it to work (though I note that both Lightwave and Vau De seem to feel they've cracked this), so one option is go down the MSR/Terra Nova/etc. route and put silicone on the outside and PU on the inside. The silicone outer is still good because it filters UV to some degree and is better at shedding droplets. The PU inner, however, means more heat ageing of the base fabric which means it's a lot weaker than putting a silicone coating both sides (presumably doing one side ages it less than both, I'm guessing).
Another way to do it is go down Hilleberg's route which is a very high level of QA and machining investment. They use interlocked seams and sewing machines that minimise contact time of hot needles and the net result is seams that typically don't leak (but "typically" isn't the same as "guaranteed waterproof", and seams do pull over time). But another part of the schtick there is selling on strength, and by not using PU they can play that card. Also, sat at the "money not much of an object" end of the market they have less immediate competition and can be a bit quirky, selling to a smaller customer base than the likes of MSR.
Another way is Tarptent's approach, which is more of a cottage industry (as was Saunders in their time) making niche products, and again they can be quirky and will offer to seal the seams for a very reasonable cost.

Why don't more people do what Tarptent do? I'm guessing, but my guess is scale and QA. The bigger an operation you are the more QA is an issue, because every item of a model you turn out needs to be effectively identical to every other. With seam sealing, which is a manual process and very hard to verify as done right without pitching it in a shower, this is hard to say everything is effectively the same. For Tarptent to refund the odd punter with a drip their $20 or whatever is very different to MSR seeing hundreds of "my tent leaked!" 1 star reviews on Amazon.

Is it hard to DIY?
No. I'm not great with my hands but it's just a case of getting suitable goop, pitching the tent and running your finger along the seams to work it in. I've never had to bother yet on the Hilles, I did my Spacepacker and an older Saunder Snowcat I had and it really isn't much to worry about. And I never had to worry about the tape peeling over time, and I knew the fly was much stronger.

I recently had to re-tape the floor seam in our Hille Kaitum (very large floors have seams, floors are better suited to PU coats than flys) and for that I used (at Hilleberg's suggestion) Tenacious Tape. One dead-straight seam on a flat bit of fabric, was just a case of taking time and care. That would work on a PY fly as well, but compared to sealing goop would cost a lot more, be much harder to do on a non-flat structure and generally be extra effort for no real return.

You are, I think, dead right about the "unfinishedness" aspects and how that comes across in the market. Chatting with someone at Rohan some time ago they said that when making waterproof coats 2-layer with a drop liner were generally more popular in the market than 3-layer because the drop liner hides the seam tape which make it look... unfinished! However, at the serious performance end of the market for mountaineering designers (and buyers) tend to favour 3-layer as it generally works better.

Pete.

(edited for typos)
Last edited by pjclinch on 1 Dec 2022, 11:59am, edited 1 time in total.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 10:53am
https://durstongear.com/materials claims a 'best of all possible worlds'  polyester fabric with outer silicone  elastomer  coat but the inner coated with a polyurethane family member called PEU which apparently doesn't significantly? weaken the fabric like usual PU. He also claims plain nylon fabrics strength advantage is overstated/irrelevant if chosen properly.
That piece generally chimes with my understanding.

However, when it comes to a fly then PEU is still looking to be at a strength disadvantage to silicone so the only reason to go that way is seam-taping and that... adds weight and bulk, heat ages the fabric, and isn't clearly better than taking 10 minutes to put some goop on. And especially in the ultralight market that's pitched at I would have thought the typical customer would be okay with seam sealing?

I prefer Hille's approach of really going to town on the seam construction. Because seams are an inherent weakness, so it's worth putting more effort in to them than popping on some tape and saying "out of sight, out of mind!".

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:11am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 9:19am Tent manufacturers collectively haven't exactly done a good job of explaining seam sealing. As demonstrated by my following question: why can't seams be sealed at the factory? Why does the end purchaser have to do it at home? I think it's probably this "unfinishedness" that people are objecting to, along with doubt in their own abilities.
Seam sealing is seen as a Good Thing that people are very used to seeing as a fundamental Given on waterproof kit (most obviously jackets), but in reality it's a two-edged sword on a tent. As typically applied by machine it uses a hot process to bond it to the fabric and that heat ages the fabric, weakening it. It also adds weight and bulk to the finished product.
Another problem is silicone elastomer coats are too slippy for it to work (though I note that both Lightwave and Vau De seem to feel they've cracked this), so one option is go down the MSR/Terra Nova/etc. route and put silicone on the outside and PU on the inside. The silicone outer is still good because it filters UV to some degree and is better at shedding droplets. The PU inner, however, means more heat ageing of the base fabric which means it's a lot weaker than putting a silicone coating both sides (presumably doing one side ages it less than both, I'm guessing).
Another way to do it is go down Hilleberg's route which is a very high level of QA and machining investment. They use interlocked seams and sewing machines that minimise contact time of hot needles and the net result is seams that typically don't leak (but "typically" isn't the same as "guaranteed waterproof", and seams do pull over time. But another part of the schtick there is selling on strength, and by not using PU they can play that card. Also, sat at the "money not much of an object" end of the market they have less immediate competition and can be a bit quirky, selling to a smaller customer base than the likes of MSR.
Another way is Tarptent's approach, which is more of a cottage industry (as was Saunders in their time) making niche products, and again they can be quirky and will offer to seal the seams for a very reasonable cost.

Why don't more people do what Tarptent do? I'm guessing, but my guess is scale and QA. The bigger an operation you are the more QA is an issue, because every item of a model you turn out needs to be effectively identical to every other. With seam sealing, which is a manual process and very hard to verify as done right without pitching it in a shower, this is hard to say everything is effectively the same. For Tarptent to refund the odd punter with a drip their $20 or whatever is very different to MSR seeing hundreds of "my tent leaked!" 1 start reviews on Amazon.

Is it hard to DIY?
No. I'm not great with my hands but it's just a case of getting suitable goop, pitching the tent and running your finger along the seams to work it in. I've never had to bother yet on the Hilles, I did my Spacepacker and an older Saunder Snowcat I had and it really isn't much to worry about. And I never had to worry about the tape peeling over time, and I knew the fly was much stronger.

I recently had to re-tape the floor seam in our Hille Kaitum (very large floors have seams, floors are better suited to PU coats than flys) and for that I used (at Hilleberg's suggestion) Tenacious Tape. One dead-straight seam on a flat bit of fabric, was just a case of taking time and care. That would work on a PY fly as well, but compared to sealing goop would cost a lot more, be much harder to do on a non-flat structure and generally be extra effort for no real return.

You are, I think, dead right about the "unfinishedness" aspects and how that comes across in the market. Chatting with a someone at Rohan some time ago they said that when making waterproof coats 2-layer with a drop liner were generally more popular in the market than 3-layer because the drop liner hides the seam tape which make it look... unfinished! However, at the serious performance end of the market for mountaineering designers (and buyers) tend to favour 3-layer as it generally works better.

Pete.
Thanks for the clear and comprehensive answer.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am .....
That piece generally chimes with my understanding.

However, when it comes to a fly then PEU is still looking to be at a strength disadvantage to silicone so the only reason to go that way is seam-taping and that... adds weight and bulk, heat ages the fabric, and isn't clearly better than taking 10 minutes to put some goop on. ....
He presumably thinks the reduction in strength isn"t significant enough to drop the convenience of taping and then he can expand beyond the subsection of ULers prepared to seamseal?
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 1:46pm
pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am .....
That piece generally chimes with my understanding.

However, when it comes to a fly then PEU is still looking to be at a strength disadvantage to silicone so the only reason to go that way is seam-taping and that... adds weight and bulk, heat ages the fabric, and isn't clearly better than taking 10 minutes to put some goop on. ....
He presumably thinks the reduction in strength isn"t significant enough to drop the convenience of taping and then he can expand beyond the subsection of ULers prepared to seamseal?
Maybe, though it seems pretty bizarre.
"So, what are you willing to do without, in your quest for light weight and maximum miles?"
"Well, I'm happy to live on dehydrated rabbit food and take minimalist waterproofs where we're only looking to avoid hypothermic rather than stay comfy, and my mat is only 2/3 length, and I only get to wash my base layers every two weeks, but it's worth it!"
"So 10 minutes to seal a couple of seams wouldn't be an issue?"
"ARE YOU MAD?"

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6259
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:52pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 1:46pm
pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am .....
That piece generally chimes with my understanding.

However, when it comes to a fly then PEU is still looking to be at a strength disadvantage to silicone so the only reason to go that way is seam-taping and that... adds weight and bulk, heat ages the fabric, and isn't clearly better than taking 10 minutes to put some goop on. ....
He presumably thinks the reduction in strength isn"t significant enough to drop the convenience of taping and then he can expand beyond the subsection of ULers prepared to seamseal?
Maybe, though it seems pretty bizarre.
"So, what are you willing to do without, in your quest for light weight and maximum miles?"
"Well, I'm happy to live on dehydrated rabbit food and take minimalist waterproofs where we're only looking to avoid hypothermic rather than stay comfy, and my mat is only 2/3 length, and I only get to wash my base layers every two weeks, but it's worth it!"
"So 10 minutes to seal a couple of seams wouldn't be an issue?"
"ARE YOU MAD?"

Pete.
It wouldn't be that surprising. I know of an ultralighter who regularly has a (good humoured) go at others for "adding weight" if they eg put tape round the handle of something for comfort – and yet he himself backpacks with a cast iron skillet. Fried breakfast the he likes it is something he's not prepared to compromise on. So looking for rationality among ULers, as among any group of extremists, is pointless. (Except in the case of audaxers, where points is all they're interested in :D ).
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 3:52pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 1:46pm
pjclinch wrote: 1 Dec 2022, 11:20am .....
That piece generally chimes with my understanding.

However, when it comes to a fly then PEU is still looking to be at a strength disadvantage to silicone so the only reason to go that way is seam-taping and that... adds weight and bulk, heat ages the fabric, and isn't clearly better than taking 10 minutes to put some goop on. ....
He presumably thinks the reduction in strength isn"t significant enough to drop the convenience of taping and then he can expand beyond the subsection of ULers prepared to seamseal?
Maybe, though it seems pretty bizarre.
"So, what are you willing to do without, in your quest for light weight and maximum miles?"
"Well, I'm happy to live on dehydrated rabbit food and take minimalist waterproofs where we're only looking to avoid hypothermic rather than stay comfy, and my mat is only 2/3 length, and I only get to wash my base layers every two weeks, but it's worth it!"
"So 10 minutes to seal a couple of seams wouldn't be an issue?"
"ARE YOU MAD?"

Pete.
I was suggesting he might want to expand who he sells to, not just extreme ultralighters, pethaps even ordinary well heeled mortals used to seam sealed tents, ... insulting those extra potential customers might not be helpful for that purpose :)

Edit His tents were made by 'same factory that produces some MSR, Nemo, and Black Diamond products'* so he is perhaps not really a cottage producer? *From
https://www.outsideonline.com/business- ... ite-tents/
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Perhaps a 3/4 size spacepacker tribute ( only one porch)?

https://www.ferrino.it/en/shop-en/equip ... esi-2.html
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 5:21pm Perhaps a 3/4 size spacepacker tribute ( only one porch)?
90 degrees out of phase, the Spacepacker is a transverse design with the pole across, rather than along, the direction of repose.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

pjclinch wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 3:06pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 5:21pm Perhaps a 3/4 size spacepacker tribute ( only one porch)?
90 degrees out of phase, the Spacepacker is a transverse design with the pole across, rather than along, the direction of repose.

Pete.
But thats an improvement in my book (and to some others on this forum) .
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 5:46pm
pjclinch wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 3:06pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 5:21pm Perhaps a 3/4 size spacepacker tribute ( only one porch)?
90 degrees out of phase, the Spacepacker is a transverse design with the pole across, rather than along, the direction of repose.
But thats an improvement in my book (and to some others on this forum) .
The Macpac Microlight (and I imagine lots of others) has been around for decades doing it that way and is still available. TN's original Solar had the same layout and eventually spawned a 2-person version with a back door too, but despite being well liked seems to have fallen out of their range (there is a Solar, but it's a completely different configuration)

Of course the Phoenix Phreeranger (with a spreader pole at the top) was a contemporary of the Spacepacker with an end-on design and Trekkertent look to have revived it, see https://www.trekkertent.com/home/home/3 ... anger.html. MSR's Hubba family (and similar from e.g. Big Agnes) are more contemporary developments.
The Phreeranger was considered superior in many respects as far as sleep layout and e.g. separation of inner and outer went, but using more traditional fabrics was weaker and heavier, and those of us liking our porch space always warmed to the likes of the Spacepacker and Basecamp as they had masses compared to most. A Spacepacker has far more usable porch space than a Quasar.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by SA_SA_SA »

pjclinch wrote: 7 Dec 2022, 3:06pm
SA_SA_SA wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 5:21pm Perhaps a 3/4 size spacepacker tribute ( only one porch)?
90 degrees out of phase, the Spacepacker is a transverse design with the pole across, rather than along, the direction of repose.

Pete.
Yes, I have come across Trekkertent and noticed their Phreeranger tribute but it has less vestibuke space than a spacepacker (backpackers seem to need less?).
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Midge mesh for Saunders Space Packer

Post by pjclinch »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 13 Dec 2022, 4:34pm
Yes, I have come across Trekkertent and noticed their Phreeranger tribute but it has less vestibule space than a spacepacker (backpackers seem to need less?).
I think it's really a case of the designer's (and customers') priorities. Bob Saunders clearly rated porch space (the Galaxy/Snowcat transverse tunnel for two had porch space equal to the entire ground plan of a Spacepacker), whoever does the design work at TN apparently not so much...
It's the relatively slim porches on the Tarptent Scarp (1 or 2) that put me off getting one as a Spacepacker replacement.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Post Reply