Electric everything.

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Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

And how far off is the kind of practical storage and/or interconnect supplies that make the alternatives work without having to resort to large quantities of fossil fuels on a frequent basis? Realistically, not optimistic sales to investors figures. The reason I made this point was precisely because the moroccan scheme has already slipped a year.

I'm not saying it's not a good project, but using unrealistic expectations to critique other v.low carbon generation is entirely irrational as the net result inevitably ends up being more fossil fuels burnt overall. Just as fear of nuclear has left western europe in the state of an aging/retired fleet of reactors and still figuring out how to build replacements efficiently (while Japan can go from start to generation in 5 years at the moment), or worse in the specific case of Germany, shutting down reactors prematurely, and emitting countless more Mt of CO2 as a result. It's not just about the next 10-15 years but decades beyond that, net zero is only a stepping stone.

As has been pointed out previously, options for generation methods need to be considered as an overall solution in the manner that the national grid has done, not as individual marginal rates as sadly appears to be the case in most of the academic literature bun fights on the topic.
Biospace wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 1:31pm HS2 for many is the latest and most expensive way of further overheating London and the South East.
well yes, the 'just 20min for suits to get between birmingham and london' is a classic on the bingo card as well, both for being factually incorrect (30-40min) and also entirely missing the point of HS2 which, from the start, has been about the best way to provide additional capacity for multiple parts of the clogged WCML, MML & ECML. Of course thanks to the current government's shortsighted nonsense, the latter two are currently off that list and the net result is a win for the motor and roads lobbies.
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Biospace
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

Stevek76 wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 2:34pm
Biospace wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 1:31pm HS2 for many is the latest and most expensive way of further overheating London and the South East.
well yes, the 'just 20min for suits to get between birmingham and london' is a classic on the bingo card as well, both for being factually incorrect (30-40min) and also entirely missing the point of HS2 which, from the start, has been about the best way to provide additional capacity for multiple parts of the clogged WCML, MML & ECML. Of course thanks to the current government's shortsighted nonsense, the latter two are currently off that list and the net result is a win for the motor and roads lobbies.
{my bold}

What are the capacity increases of high speed rail over conventional speed?

Are you suggesting that feeding a high speed railway line into London will not further increase the problems associated with London's economic overheating and the resulting further disparities in the regions?

I do totally agree with the description of multiple Tory administrations as "shortsighted nonsense" when it comes to transport policy, although I do remember being similarly disappointed by New Labour's promise of an integrated transport network which cames to nought.
ANTONISH
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by ANTONISH »

Stevek76 wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 2:34pm
well yes, the 'just 20min for suits to get between birmingham and london' is a classic on the bingo card as well, both for being factually incorrect (30-40min) and also entirely missing the point of HS2 which, from the start, has been about the best way to provide additional capacity for multiple parts of the clogged WCML, MML & ECML. Of course thanks to the current government's shortsighted nonsense, the latter two are currently off that list and the net result is a win for the motor and roads lobbies.
[/quote]

Increasing the capacity would be a good thing.
Producing a high speed high cost link is just a vanity project.
The high speed has been bought at the cost of capacity where it's needed.
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RickH
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by RickH »

My understanding is that separating the high speed intercity trains from both the slower, stopping trains & freight. Gives a big increase in capacity. A high speed line can run 8 to 10 trains an hour, a "slow" can run a similar number. But, once you start mixing them on the same track, you decrease capacity to roughly 2 trains of each type per hour. The example given by a rail engineer that I heard is that the trains from Aberyswyth to Birmingham run once an hour. But the service is often unreliable because trains get held waiting to access New Street Station because of capacity issues. If you move the fast trains out of New Street onto their own dedicated line then the Aberystwyth service could become a reliable twice an hour service. The capacity for more local & regional trains is at least doubled.

You can get round the capacity issues to a large extent by having 4 parallel tracks, 2 each way. The problem is great lengths of many UK lines are only a single pair. Combined with the time many of the lines have been there & much building has gone on adjacent to the lines. it isn't feasible to widen the tracks to 4 without demolishing thousands of houses. Plus there would be major disruption during work - the west coast mainline, for example, would need to shut at weekends probably for decades and have significant chunks of complete closure.

Once you decide a new build is necessary for the faster trains it makes very little difference to costs to make them high speed. It also enables a much more environmentally friendly alternative to domestic flights & long distance driving.

With this being a cycling forum there is the obvious potential for the "mixed mode" option of combining cycling & trains to do long trips easily. For example, I'm about 8 miles by bike from Wigan Northwest station & my sister lives about 8 miles from Glasgow Central. Last time I did that trip it took almost exactly the same time door to door as Google reckoned it would take to drive. But I would need to factor in at least one stop (the old "it isn't how many miles per gallon, but how many miles per bladder!") on top of that if I drove. Plus getting cheap advance fares (last year before the current problems, but only bought on a Friday for the following Tuesday) & a railcard got me the round trip for about £25.
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Biospace
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

RickH wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 12:00am Once you decide a new build is necessary for the faster trains it makes very little difference to costs to make them high speed. It also enables a much more environmentally friendly alternative to domestic flights & long distance driving.
The question being, does England need a high speed rail link which will save less than half an hour's travelling time between Birmingham and London? How many choose to fly instead of taking a train between our two largest cities when they're so relatively close? In a country the size of France, the reduction in journey times is measured in hours, which genuinely shrinks their country.

Meanwhile, parts of the UK's travel network between areas of high economic activity are little more than a joke - it takes longer by rail from Leeds to Manchester than by car, even centre to centre when in crawling traffic through the cities.
Stevek76
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Stevek76 »

If you're building a new line, which you need to get the intercity trains onto separate rails, there is very little reason not to build it to modern standards. The savings of building a new 200kph line over a 350kph one are minimal and the latter is much more competitive vs car and regional air.
RickH wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 12:00am the west coast mainline, for example, would need to shut at weekends probably for decades and have significant chunks of complete closure.
The wcml has been mostly 4 tracked between Crewe and London during the 2000s. It did take significant costs, disruption and time to do.
Biospace wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 1:47pm The question being, does England need a high speed rail link which will save less than half an hour's travelling time between Birmingham and London?

Meanwhile, parts of the UK's travel network between areas of high economic activity are little more than a joke - it takes longer by rail from Leeds to Manchester than by car, even centre to centre when in crawling traffic through the cities.
It's 30min off lon-birm, not that you'd know if your only sources of information on it was those opposed to it or even that it actually went to Manchester and Leeds. Times of the original plan were also 50mins off London to Leeds, 1hr London to Manchester (from ~ 2hr 10min to ~1hr 10min off absolutely going to be a major competitive change vs air), 50min -1hr off Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester.

And all that released capacity on the existing mainlines allows a much more frequent and comprehensive local and regional offering. Much of this local potential mode shift was never properly assessed by the dft in the business cases because of utterly barmy concerns about not wanting to prejudice future franchising tenders :roll:

The Eastern leg was also a critical component of the northern powerhouse rail that was going to drop Leeds to Manchester times to 25min. But with the Eastern leg reduced to a joke that will actually make things worse on the ecml, npr is in tatters with it. Northern opponents to hs2 have been excellent examples of self foot shooting.
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Biospace
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

Stevek76 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 3:56pm If you're building a new line, which you need to get the intercity trains onto separate rails, there is very little reason not to build it to modern standards. The savings of building a new 200kph line over a 350kph one are minimal and the latter is much more competitive vs car and regional air.
Biospace wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 1:47pm The question being, does England need a high speed rail link which will save less than half an hour's travelling time between Birmingham and London?

Meanwhile, parts of the UK's travel network between areas of high economic activity are little more than a joke - it takes longer by rail from Leeds to Manchester than by car, even centre to centre when in crawling traffic through the cities.
It's 30min off lon-birm, not that you'd know if your only sources of information on it was those opposed to it or even that it actually went to Manchester and Leeds. Times of the original plan were also 50mins off London to Leeds, 1hr London to Manchester (from ~ 2hr 10min to ~1hr 10min off absolutely going to be a major competitive change vs air), 50min -1hr off Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester.

And all that released capacity on the existing mainlines allows a much more frequent and comprehensive local and regional offering. Much of this local potential mode shift was never properly assessed by the dft in the business cases because of utterly barmy concerns about not wanting to prejudice future franchising tenders :roll:

The Eastern leg was also a critical component of the northern powerhouse rail that was going to drop Leeds to Manchester times to 25min. But with the Eastern leg reduced to a joke that will actually make things worse on the ecml, npr is in tatters with it. Northern opponents to hs2 have been excellent examples of self foot shooting.

Well, the numbers I used were from a rail forum, but looking elsewhere I see the Guardian suggests it's likely to be as much as a 32 or even 35 minute time saving (Birmingham-London). By the time you've walked the length of a couple of long platforms it's possible the difference may be a good few minutes less.

The graphic shows there are some proportionally significant reductions from Brum to Leeds/Newcastle but it's clear how little many journey times are only marginal improvements, as you'd expect with such relatively small distances in England.

Screenshot 2022-12-11 at 17.29.34.jpg

I'd be all for a 230mph service as a decent network for our island but even as someone who loves railways, does that really make sense with only 325-ish miles (atcf) between the more distant two major capitals and a landscape which has dictated existing railways lines are rarely more than 10 miles at the most in a straight line? 140-160mph would not dictate the need for so few curves of such minimal radius - I struggle to see that a rail track designed for 250mph would not cost a lot more in Britain than one for 150.

Cameron and Osborne were dreamers with little understanding of real world practicalities and little consideration for the lives of most of us, a there and back with nothing in between Birmingham and London is all we'll have for many years. Doesn't this mean InterCity services on the WCML can't be replaced with slower services as you suggest?

From railwaymen I've chatted with, big problems are finding room for goods trains around London as well as the dire passenger services across the country, critically so in the North of England.
rjb
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by rjb »

Anyone here signed up to one of these schemes to reduce your supply at peak times and be paid for it. How does the suppliers know how much electric you have reduced. :?:
This scheme suggests to me that the only people who would benefit are those that waste it in the first place. Customers that are already prudent wouldn't have much room to reduce demand.

On another headline this morning I see that National Grid are putting 2 coal fired units on standby in case demand exceeds supply. The spokesman on BBC breakfast dressed this up as warming up the boilers. :lol:

This was known as Spinning Reserve when I worked in the power industry. So it means a fully operational power station, fully staffed, burning coal, making steam, driving 600mw steam turbines which have been run up to 3000rpm with the Generator synchronised to the grid and the whole system ticking over at few MW waiting for NG to instruct them to raise load. To get the units in this reserve state would take around 12 hours of preparation from a shutdown state. And it's consuming 40MW of electric to keep all those pumps and machinery running.
This does reduce the risks of blackouts but at a substantial cost. :(
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Jdsk
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 4 Dec 2022, 7:42pm
Jdsk wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 3:42pm 2 GW interconnect between Normandy and Hampshire not permitted:
https://infrastructure.planninginspecto ... Letter.pdf
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-60073706
Application for judicial review granted:
https://aquind.co.uk/news/high-court-gr ... al-review/

I'll try and find out what's happened since June.
Decision overturned:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64388577

AQUIND statement:
https://aquind.co.uk/news/aquind-welcom ... th-france/

Jonathan
ANTONISH
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by ANTONISH »

IMO the payment to reduce consumption at peak times is just the carrot.
Eventually once "smart" meters have been forced upon us the power companies will produce the stick and penalise those who cosume electricity out of permitted hours.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by al_yrpal »

Its like travel isnt it? Travel at peak times and pay more or go at less popular times and pay less. In fact we already have it in limited way with Economy 7 tariff for storage heaters.

Makes sense to me.

Al
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Biospace
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

It's just like travel, encouraging those who don't have to use at peak demand to use the service when it's more convenient for the service provider - this will be done electronically and invisibly, within user-set parameters presumably. Which should save energy, reduce pollution and allow the Grid to use home stored energy (cars and domestic batterues) in the future, all of which create a more robust network with less under utilised power generating stations - the equivalent of reducing the amount of trains sitting unused other than for morning and evening rush hours.

The concerns I have are that all of these measures by their nature give private industry a higher level of control over the individual and the potential for much higher profits, so it's important government regulates effectively so that the consumer is not taken advantage of. So far I've seen little from government to allay fears that the extra control will be well regulated.
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mjr
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by mjr »

Biospace wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 3:29pm The concerns I have are that all of these measures by their nature give private industry a higher level of control over the individual and the potential for much higher profits, so it's important government regulates effectively so that the consumer is not taken advantage of. So far I've seen little from government to allay fears that the extra control will be well regulated.
They already have total control since privatisation and regulation is already half -ineffective. Smart meters should allow some of us to keep detailed independent records without messing about in the meter cupboard often or arguing about sensor calibration, and to act cooperatively to reduce the risk of power cuts or paying polluting power stations to fire up.
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Cugel
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Cugel »

Biospace wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 3:29pm
The concerns I have are that all of these measures by their nature give private industry a higher level of control over the individual and the potential for much higher profits, so it's important government regulates effectively so that the consumer is not taken advantage of. So far I've seen little from government to allay fears that the extra control will be well regulated.
What government? We don't seem to have one just now.

When the spivs do go through the motions of governing, they do so as oligarchs - making laws to benefit their friends and supporters and other laws to suppress the cries of disagreement, or even rage, from the hoi-polloi. No protesting allowed! Voting the privilege of only those with plenty of share-divvies and an inclination to vote for the spivs!

Regulations, such as those you propose, are to be burnt on a bonfire. Only the serfs will be regulated, with a Large Portion of their productions taken by the Spiv Aristocracy, who need it for reasons they don't have to explain to mere serfs.

*************

I'll be doing my best to become independent of large energy production and distribution businesses. On the other hand, if the nation ever returns to the notion and practice of proper representative government, with justice as fairness, equal opportunities and the like, I'll be more than happy to give away any excess from me solar panels and windmills (when I get them too).

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Biospace
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Re: Electric everything.

Post by Biospace »

Cugel wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 3:56pm
Biospace wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 3:29pm
The concerns I have are that all of these measures by their nature give private industry a higher level of control over the individual and the potential for much higher profits, so it's important government regulates effectively so that the consumer is not taken advantage of. So far I've seen little from government to allay fears that the extra control will be well regulated.
What government? We don't seem to have one just now.

When the spivs do go through the motions of governing, they do so as oligarchs - making laws to benefit their friends and supporters and other laws to suppress the cries of disagreement, or even rage, from the hoi-polloi. No protesting allowed! Voting the privilege of only those with plenty of share-divvies and an inclination to vote for the spivs!

Regulations, such as those you propose, are to be burnt on a bonfire. Only the serfs will be regulated, with a Large Portion of their productions taken by the Spiv Aristocracy, who need it for reasons they don't have to explain to mere serfs.

*************

I'll be doing my best to become independent of large energy production and distribution businesses. On the other hand, if the nation ever returns to the notion and practice of proper representative government, with justice as fairness, equal opportunities and the like, I'll be more than happy to give away any excess from me solar panels and windmills (when I get them too).

Cugel, probably some form of pink-livered commie.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. We've been corraled into increasingly less of most things which really matter. It does appear that an ability to go off-grid, having a range of practical skills and ability to grow some of your own food will be ever more important.

Have you seen the fellow up on Lewis with his kite-based wind generation? https://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk/
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