Whip removed!

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Tangled Metal
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Whip removed!

Post by Tangled Metal »

5 tories and 4 Labour have had the whip removed. Is there a change in how parties manage discipline and deal with allegations? What had caused this change?

I read that the equalities commission report on labour antisemitism triggered labour's automatic removal of whip on application of administrative suspension following receipt of a complaint. Basically to try and stop the MP from being in a position where they could carry on the offence. I'm guessing tories have their own reasons too.
Psamathe
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 8:46pm 5 tories and 4 Labour have had the whip removed. Is there a change in how parties manage discipline and deal with allegations? What had caused this change?

I read that the equalities commission report on labour antisemitism triggered labour's automatic removal of whip on application of administrative suspension following receipt of a complaint. Basically to try and stop the MP from being in a position where they could carry on the offence. I'm guessing tories have their own reasons too.
Cause: Johnson I suspect.

Ian
Tangled Metal
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Tangled Metal »

Psamathe wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 9:25pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 8:46pm 5 tories and 4 Labour have had the whip removed. Is there a change in how parties manage discipline and deal with allegations? What had caused this change?

I read that the equalities commission report on labour antisemitism triggered labour's automatic removal of whip on application of administrative suspension following receipt of a complaint. Basically to try and stop the MP from being in a position where they could carry on the offence. I'm guessing tories have their own reasons too.
Cause: Johnson I suspect.

Ian
What about him caused tory change? Labour antisemitism and Starmersp's need to distance from Corbyn is clear and seems to fit the timesc fior the changes. I'm not sure there's quite the delineated change with the tories to easily explain the seeming change. I think tory whip removals started in the Johnson era and has carried into the current era.
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Mick F
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Mick F »

I'd remove the whip from them all, and then sack the lot of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I don't know the figures, but there are more voters in UK without a person they voted for, than voters who got the person they wanted. This means that the majority of UK voters are completely without representation.
Mick F. Cornwall
Psamathe
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 9:59pm
Psamathe wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 9:25pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 8:46pm 5 tories and 4 Labour have had the whip removed. Is there a change in how parties manage discipline and deal with allegations? What had caused this change?

I read that the equalities commission report on labour antisemitism triggered labour's automatic removal of whip on application of administrative suspension following receipt of a complaint. Basically to try and stop the MP from being in a position where they could carry on the offence. I'm guessing tories have their own reasons too.
Cause: Johnson I suspect.

Ian
What about him caused tory change? Labour antisemitism and Starmersp's need to distance from Corbyn is clear and seems to fit the timesc fior the changes. I'm not sure there's quite the delineated change with the tories to easily explain the seeming change. I think tory whip removals started in the Johnson era and has carried into the current era.
That Johnson was slow to react, argued to defend rule breaking and failed to punish those found to have broken rules dragged his Government into loads of sleaze allegations; effectively providing Labour loads of ammunition. I think this has contributed to current leadership wanting to avoid such allegations (or providing the opposition with more political points) so making them fast to react. Labour has to behave in a similar manner so it isn't turned against them.

Not the entire reason but I think a significant contributory factor.

Ian
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Audax67
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Audax67 »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:25am I'd remove the whip from them all, and then sack the lot of them.
Remove whip, apply cat.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Psamathe
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Psamathe »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:25am I'd remove the whip from them all, and then sack the lot of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I don't know the figures, but there are more voters in UK without a person they voted for, than voters who got the person they wanted. This means that the majority of UK voters are completely without representation.
The MP for your constituency is meant to represent you irrespective of who you voted for. At least in theory but so many fail so badly at so many things, representation of constituents seems to be more used when convenient to pursue their personal ideology.

Ian
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Mick F
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Mick F »

How can a TORY member represent a Labour voter?

Let's say that there are two candidates who are absolutely poles apart. Call them A and Z.
A gets 50.001% of the votes cast, and Z gets 49.999% of the votes.

First Past the Post should be consigned to the bin.
Mick F. Cornwall
Psamathe
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Psamathe »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 3:43pm How can a TORY member represent a Labour voter?

Let's say that there are two candidates who are absolutely poles apart. Call them A and Z.
A gets 50.001% of the votes cast, and Z gets 49.999% of the votes.

First Past the Post should be consigned to the bin.
Easy, they listen, balance views expressed against other views expressed and represent those views in parliament. In appropriate when constituents raise issues, they ask questions to Government departments and seek answers and/or pass those views onto the appropriate places.

As you interpret the system (where you didn't vote for your constituency MP) is a "winner takes all" system. Our system is your MP shoudl represent their constituents irrespective as to how they voted.

Failings in the system are many but to my mind the biggest failings are "safe seats" (where the MP then feels they don't have to listen to anybody as they'll be re-elected whatever happens), the Whipping system where an MP represents only the Government and "poor" MPs who are bussed-in to a constituency, live far away, don't understand the constituency and have no interest in that constituency.

First past the post is a different thing from your constituency MP representing you.

Ian
Tangled Metal
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Tangled Metal »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:25am I'd remove the whip from them all, and then sack the lot of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I don't know the figures, but there are more voters in UK without a person they voted for, than voters who got the person they wanted. This means that the majority of UK voters are completely without representation.
Wrong! We've got a representative democracy based around a first past the post electoral system. You get representation from whoever wins under that system whether you agree with the manifesto or politics they stood under. What you are expressing is not about representation but about the outcome of the system. Of course the 2019 vote for SE Cornwall which I think includes Gunnislake on BBC website showed 59% vote share for the tory there. That's over 50% of those who bothered to vote so what are you on about anyway?
ANTONISH
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by ANTONISH »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 3:43pm How can a TORY member represent a Labour voter?

Let's say that there are two candidates who are absolutely poles apart. Call them A and Z.
A gets 50.001% of the votes cast, and Z gets 49.999% of the votes.

First Past the Post should be consigned to the bin.
An MP is elected to represent his constituents.
It's quite possible for a Conservative MP to take up a cause on behalf of a labour voting constituent or vice versa.
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Mick F
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Mick F »

Tangled Metal wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 4:13pm
Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:25am I'd remove the whip from them all, and then sack the lot of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and I don't know the figures, but there are more voters in UK without a person they voted for, than voters who got the person they wanted. This means that the majority of UK voters are completely without representation.
Wrong! We've got a representative democracy based around a first past the post electoral system. You get representation from whoever wins under that system whether you agree with the manifesto or politics they stood under. What you are expressing is not about representation but about the outcome of the system. Of course the 2019 vote for SE Cornwall which I think includes Gunnislake on BBC website showed 59% vote share for the tory there. That's over 50% of those who bothered to vote so what are you on about anyway?
Good evening! :D

The issue here, is that the Tory MP for SE Cornwall is Tory Sheryll Murray.
Never seen her here, and no-one I know has ever seen her here. She ignores us here in very SE Cornwall.

The Tory MP we had some years ago, we saw many times. Robert Hicks.
Even though he was a Tory, we saw him, he supported the locals, and he was well-liked, even by me .......... and that's saying something about a Tory.

Sheryll Murray?
She's a waste of space.
Mick F. Cornwall
Psamathe
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Psamathe »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 7:08pm ...
The issue here, is that the Tory MP for SE Cornwall is Tory Sheryll Murray.
Never seen her here, and no-one I know has ever seen her here. She ignores us here in very SE Cornwall.
...
What efforts have you made to ask for help or express you views to her so she can better represent you? How long do you think it would take her to go round and meet every constituent?

But some MPs are not good but that has nothing to with an MP representing somebody who didn't vote for them. First past the post may or may not make it easier for a bad MP to get elected. In a safe seat it would make it easier but in a constituency where the vote is closer it might make it easier for a poor MP to be replaced (different party candidate). Maybe some bad MPs are bad because they are in a safe seat. I suspect my own MP would not stand if it was marginal but he's 110% safe because he's Conservative so he doesn't bother about constituents. I dislike the first past the post system but it may have some unexpected effects.

Ian
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Mike_Ayling »

Mick F wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 3:43pm How can a TORY member represent a Labour voter?

Let's say that there are two candidates who are absolutely poles apart. Call them A and Z.
A gets 50.001% of the votes cast, and Z gets 49.999% of the votes.

First Past the Post should be consigned to the bin.
So what is your suggestion?
Come to Australia mate and enjoy all the benefits of preferential and compulsory voting where it can take four weeks to determine the result in a particular electorate!
Tangled Metal
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Re: Whip removed!

Post by Tangled Metal »

That's not a case of her not representing you just not representing you very well.

My old place had a tory who was a blue rosette who would vote with his party every time. He's a big party yes man and hopeless. Our neighbour at the time was big into supporting military and her adult son was a leader in the local cadets. There was a commemoration of a us plane crew from WWII who who was going down. The pilot really they were about to crash into a town so he flew straight into the ground before the town probably saving a lot of people, much more than live there now. There was a new plaque and a full bird USAF colonel, a RAF equivalent and a few other dignitaries too. The local cadets did a march and parade there too. The mp was due to turn up and do a speech. He turned up late, keeping ppl waiting, and he turned up in scruffy, paint covered jeans to it when everyone was dressed up smartly.

You can guess what the neighbours thought of him. Could barely say his name without a sneer.

Now I'm in farrons constituency. Former tory safe seat but now it's a libdem safe seat and locals rate him highly as a constituency mp. On the back of him the local council libdems do well now too,
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