Battery pack obsolescence.

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
PH
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by PH »

stodd wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 7:24pm
PH wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 5:59pm My understanding is that well managed batteries ought to be good for at least 1,000 full charges, that's 50,000 miles for my use.
I think that both the number of charges and the distance per charge are very optimistic for most people's use. Batteries deteriorate with age as well as with distance. A quality well managed battery should last 10 years if you are lucky. Unless you have a very regular and predictable use of battery it is difficult to run an optimal charging routine.
The range is based on my own experience doing deliveries on an E-bike for the last 14 months, around 200 miles a week. Although I try not to run a battery down, I'm frequently over 40 miles with a bar left, this is with a Bosch 500Wh Powerback and is almost exactly what Bosch predict in their range calculator. 625Wh batteries are becoming commonplace and there's also a 750 available, so mileages could be adjusted accordingly.
Battery lifespan is a hot topic, there's plenty of research and development going on with improvements all the time. The idea that I can get 1,000 cycles from a battery comes from Bosch, they've been right about the other stuff so I've no reason to doubt it. Even then they're not suggesting the battery would be dead, just that it's capacity will have fallen below 80%. I see no reason why E-bike lithium-ion batteries should be any different to any other lithium-ion battery. EV batteries are reported to be good for 1,500 - 2,000 cycles and then be good for other purposes, several car manufacturers offer 100,000 mile battery warranties.
stodd
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by stodd »

yakdiver wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 8:59pm recelling would have cost more, but my batterys are easy to come by
As you suggest, recelling is generally only worthwhile if a battery can't be replaced for some reason. You are paying UK labour rates for a one-off build rather than Chinese labour rates for mass production.

There is a marginal environmental benefit of reusing the case (and often BMS), but almost all the environmental impact is in the cells, which will be the same for recell or new.
WatfordWobble
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by WatfordWobble »

I wonder about recelling. I've no experience of it but what if the battery pack is integrated into the bike frames down tube as a number seem to be.

Would recelling a battery pack allow the pack to sit back into the down tube? Some of the battery packs seem to fit so nicely in frames . For example the Temple electric bike looks good and I would be tempted but that battery pack if I wanted to replace would it still be available in say 3 to 5 years?

Maybe I'm over thinking it.
stodd
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by stodd »

Even frame batteries not designed for regular removal are removable for replacement; some more easily than others.

Once removed, the battery case should be recellable with equivalent cells to the original (or larger capacity). There are very few sizes of cell, the majority of ebike batteries use 18650 cells; the same as used in some cars at one extreme, and some torches at the other. More cells in series for higher capacity (wh) and voltage, more in parallel for higher capacity and current.
The battery case won't be changed and will fit back into the frame.

The gotcha is sometimes the 'smart' BMS. For example, in early Bosch batteries if the BMS (integrated battery management system) lost voltage while the cells were replaced it wouldn't work once voltage was reapplied, this made the process of recelling quite tricky. I believe there are even more complicated lockout systems (they tend to call it anti-tamper or similar) in the their newer batteries. I think (not 100% sure) that the frame batteries are more likely to be proprietary and suffer from this.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by Bonzo Banana »

One thing that hasn't been discussed is lack of use of batteries. A battery that is left uncharged for too long will need replacement. If the cells are left at a very low voltage for too long they fail and will need replacing or at best have reduced capacity. On top of that you have the Bosch batteries as previously mentioned will self-brick if the charge is too low as the BMS will disable the battery from use when it becomes unpowered. At that point you have a short window of time where you can scrap the battery and salvage some of the cells before they too will die if left uncharged to for too long. I've seen a few forum postings where people used their ebikes only occasionally maybe spring/summer's only and the battery pack had failed because of lack of charging thru autumn and winter. If you forget to charge the battery at all after using it and then store the bike I guess the self-bricking can come even sooner.

The whole point of proprietary ebikes is having consumers as cash cows who can be exploited. High replacement part and repair costs mean many such ebikes can be uneconomic to repair. If your motor is beyond economic repair then you have a bike to be scrapped and a battery of no use. If the frame fatigues and fails, again the replacement proprietary frame could cost a £1000 or more if available. If the battery fails for an older ebike you have to make the decision whether to pay out for a very expensive replacement when the ebike may be getting old and the motor isn't working perfectly, that battery may cost 3x as much as a standard battery of the same capacity. Despite their high pricing many such ebikes have the shortest life. A bit like expensive German executive cars which get scrapped early compared to other cars because of excessive costs for spare parts and labour rates and being much more complicated than other similar products/cars with more complicated engines, transmissions and electronics. Also typically much more likely to have options fitted which can cause issues.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210430103 ... nufacturer

However just like those German executive cars they have better performance and perhaps a better user experience while they work however I really don't like the throwaway culture of such products, I feel products should be as easy and economic to repair as possible.

It's important to understand many ebike kits use components that are easy to repair or replace cheaply and allow easy customisation. If you buy a ebike kit and the hub motor has an issue perhaps 5 years into ownership its likely new parts are available and depending on the fault could cost just a few pence to a few tens of pounds. If you are using a bike converted into an ebike you always have the option to remove the original ebike kit and fit a new kit. An ebike kit is a bit like building a hifi system where you need speakers and an amplifier plus a few sources including a CD player and turntable perhaps. It's an open standard and you can mix and match but you have to follow certain rules like the ohms of the speakers must be compatible and sources need to use output standards the amplifier accepts. On an ebike you have the controls, the display, a controller, battery and the motor. In the case of a mid-drive motor the motor and controller are likely combined. The controller may use any battery of the right voltage and the motor and controller need to be matched for power. The controller also needs a display that electronically matches it for communication standards if its a sophisticated display but more simple displays work with more controllers and on many controllers you don't need a display anyway it could be just a basic controls with a simple battery charge indicator. It's a cheap way to buy an ebike not just initial purchase but long term costs.

I recently read on one of the forums someone who had an old lead acid battery early ebike, the batteries were end of life and the person replaced it with a modern li-on battery pack using the latest cells. It was only 24V and not only was the battery pack small compared to the original batteries (2) it actually massively extended the range as overall capacity was increased significantly. So not only was this old ebike continuing to be used but in fact it had been massively improved and updated to newer technology. The battery pack was not expensive either as only 24V so not a huge amount of batteries in series or parallel. 6 batteries in series possibly with 3 or 4 cells in parallel so only 18 or 24 cells in total I think. If the cells were around 3500mAh that gives maybe a 24V 14Ah battery with only 24 cells. Not sure what the original lead acid batteries were but their capacity would have diminished a lot I'm sure even if originally quite reasonable. I just think its great that such an ebike can be kept on the road.
Manc33
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by Manc33 »

One of the many reasons I went DIY (rear hub). My 1125Wh Liitokala pack cost less than £220. One of the best things about it is how it's comprised of 21700 cells as opposed to the far more ubiquitous 18650. Measures 300mm x 140mm x 75mm. Weighs 5 Kg.

As previously mentioned above, I could swap my bike back to normal in under two hours if I needed to.

The huge post above mine is worth a read!
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
Dingdong
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by Dingdong »

Manc33 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 5:48am One of the many reasons I went DIY (rear hub). My 1125Wh Liitokala pack cost less than £220. One of the best things about it is how it's comprised of 21700 cells as opposed to the far more ubiquitous 18650. Measures 300mm x 140mm x 75mm. Weighs 5 Kg.

As previously mentioned above, I could swap my bike back to normal in under two hours if I needed to.

The huge post above mine is worth a read!
That's a monster capacity. Where did you buy it?
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bikes4two
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by bikes4two »

axel_knutt wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 3:07pm This is the reason why I wouldn't touch e-Bikes with a barge pole.
You are lucky that you don't need an e-bike to contunue cycling. If there were no such things I would not have been able to continue cycling after health issues over the past few years.

I love my ebike for the joy that cycling has again brought back into my life and in that respect I don't pay much heed to the naysayers who say no to them.

But back to the main topic of the thread - it is the case that already early ebike owners with Bosch systems who require a replacement battery, cannot get them re-celled* and the latest bosch batteries won't work in their earlier bikes. (read through the pedelec uk forum for posts on this). One can only anticipate this to be a continuing theme.

Non-proprietary batteries as used in kits do not currently suffer from manufacturers lock-out.

*re-celling is becoming increasing complex for some bespoke batteries due to the electronic anti-tampering system/electronic control systems being deployed.
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
Dingdong
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by Dingdong »

I can imagine this thread in 3 years time. It'll be massive, the biggest on the entire forum. I look forward to ubiquitous battery assist, on all my bikes
arnsider
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by arnsider »

There are lots of E-bike detractors on here. Maybe they should count their fortune that they haven't succumbed to a chronic health problem.
I just ignore them.
Manc33
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by Manc33 »

Dingdong wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 10:52am
Manc33 wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 5:48am One of the many reasons I went DIY (rear hub). My 1125Wh Liitokala pack cost less than £220. One of the best things about it is how it's comprised of 21700 cells as opposed to the far more ubiquitous 18650. Measures 300mm x 140mm x 75mm. Weighs 5 Kg.

As previously mentioned above, I could swap my bike back to normal in under two hours if I needed to.

The huge post above mine is worth a read!
That's a monster capacity. Where did you buy it?
The LiitoKala official store on AliExpress. Just had to tell them to put a XT60 female plug on it and that was it.

Store No. 217753

Code: Select all

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001099110444.html
My biggest worry was making sure it had the right plug. Male and female refers to the metal pins of the plug, not the plastic of the plug itself. Quite confusing at first, since a plug with female pins has a male plastic enclosure, that fits into a plug with male pins that's got a female enclosure. :!:

It's 48V/25Ah which adds up to 1200Wh but from charging it up it's more like 1125Wh in reality, which is still a lot for what it cost. Probably been charged/discharged 30+ times by now and it's been fine, although of course buying one from China like this is a far bigger risk than buying one in the UK... where it would cost pretty much double. :roll:

It does about 50 miles which was a target range I wanted from a battery. I noticed a lot of the pre-built bike with those proprietary batteries are only 625Wh. I couldn't cope with that, what if I want to do a 50 mile ride? :lol: I only use it for commuting though, maybe if it was a MTB those riders aren't doing more than 25 miles or whatever.
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
hemo
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by hemo »

One has to off set the cheap littokala batteries with quality, they use cheap cells , electronics and shoddy build practices.
It is hit and miss whether they last more then a year.
axel_knutt
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by axel_knutt »

bikes4two wrote: 9 Dec 2022, 9:11pm
axel_knutt wrote: 23 Nov 2022, 3:07pm This is the reason why I wouldn't touch e-Bikes with a barge pole.
You are lucky that you don't need an e-bike to contunue cycling. If there were no such things I would not have been able to continue cycling after health issues over the past few years.
arnsider wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 8:32pm There are lots of E-bike detractors on here. Maybe they should count their fortune that they haven't succumbed to a chronic health problem.
I just ignore them.
It's been over a decade since my health put paid to any meaningful cycling, and nearly three years since I was forced to stop altogether. It's precisely because it's my health that's preventing me from cycling that I can't run the risk of an e-bike battery dumping me in the middle of nowhere because there's 35% still showing on the charge indicator. The biggest part of the satisfaction I got from cycle touring was getting from home in Essex to somewhere like Lands End or the Lake District and back again under my own steam, having to ride an e-bike would have completely destroyed that.

Ironically, I'm now extremely close to having to rely on the battery in a mobility scooter.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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bikes4two
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by bikes4two »

Ah axel-knutt , sorry to hear of your woes - I cycle toured like you and sometimes I get a bit down at not being upto it these days.

Too late now but there are a number of strategies to take to minimise the risk of a sudden battery failure, but that's not for this thread.

I wish you every good fortune - B4t
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
WatfordWobble
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Re: Battery pack obsolescence.

Post by WatfordWobble »

Thank you all for your contributions. I've taken a lot onboard and learnt a lot and still learning. The discussion is very interesting.
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