Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

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mattheus
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by mattheus »

I do appreciate the effort, but not one word of that supports why
weight on outside (down) pedal
gives any benefits.

There is a huge amount of waffle in there (about wet roads, and gear selection etc etc ... ), so forgive me if I missed the relevant sentence! x
doffcocker
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by doffcocker »

Just to confirm it is my right foot (I'm guessing that's the inside, being the most central to the road) that I put my weight on.

I have a condition called Perthes Disease on my left side that makes balancing on that leg poor.
rareposter
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by rareposter »

doffcocker wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 5:23pm Just to confirm it is my right foot (I'm guessing that's the inside, being the most central to the road) that I put my weight on.

I have a condition called Perthes Disease on my left side that makes balancing on that leg poor.
"inside" refers to whichever foot is on the inside of a turn. So if you're turning left, your left foot is "inside" and should (in theory anyway) be raised up to the 12 positions with the outside foot pushing down in the 6 position.

Vice versa if you're turning right, the inside foot will be the right as that is "inside" the turn.

Edit: when riding along freewheeling - say down a gradual descent, nothing extreme - it's most natural to have the pedals at 3 and 9 o'clock (ie horizontal). Doesn't really matter which foot is forward but most people have a preferred (dominant) foot in the same way that most people have a dominant hand..
If you're not sure which foot is dominant, imagine taking a penalty kick of a football - you run up to the ball and kick it, which foot do you use? That's your dominant foot and (in most cases), that ends up naturally as the front foot when descending.
zenitb
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by zenitb »

doffcocker wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 5:23pm Just to confirm it is my right foot (I'm guessing that's the inside, being the most central to the road) that I put my weight on.

I have a condition called Perthes Disease on my left side that makes balancing on that leg poor.
Ok I understand Doff. I am probably teaching my granny to suck eggs here but the key thing to try to avoid is putting your right foot down when you are turning right. This is because the bike is leaning right and, depending on how far you lean and how wide the pedal is, it is possible to catch the right pedal on the ground. I have done this in the past and the bike is catapulted around the pedal strike point - usually resulting in a nasty crash.

Bearing in mind what you said, if you are turning right, and dont want your left foot all the way down, and bearing weight, then maybe put the pedals at 3 and 9 O'clock as "rareposter" suggests above.

Apologies - you probably know all this already but just thought I should mention it in case.

Going back to your original query regarding getting bumped off the hood tops, this is something that worries me as well so I use the drops on bumpy, steep decents. This means there is no way my hands can get bumped off and I have full power over the brakes at all times. The lady in this GCN video explains why it is safer - and I agree with her.
drops descending.JPG
The video is called "How To Build Confidence When Descending On A Road Bike" and is at this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCsGZTZKRIo

It covers keeping your inside (that is inside the corner) pedal up as well
inside pedal.JPG
Last edited by zenitb on 24 Jan 2023, 7:37pm, edited 3 times in total.
mattsccm
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by mattsccm »

Just a thought. No disrespect intended and I may be completely wrong (and sorry if I am ) but it does seem to me that maybe the OP is't a cyclist with years of experience and thousands of miles each year behind him.
I wonder if it is a matter of a bit of a death grip. I ride my CX bike on the local red graded MTB trails and needless to say they are battered to bits, especially the gravelled one. The trick here is not to hold on hard but to virtually let go. I enclosed the bars with the lightest touch possible and the bike does its own thing.
Just a thought.
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531colin
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by 531colin »

zenitb wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 7:01pm .........................
Going back to your original query regarding getting bumped off the hood tops, this is something that worries me as well so I use the drops on bumpy, steep decents. This means there is no way my hands can get bumped off and I have full power over the brakes at all times. The lady in this GCN video explains why it is safer - and I agree with her...........
To descend safely requires that......
1. you can operate the brakes effectively
2. you can distribute your weight effectively

Its no good being on the hoods if you can't operate the brakes effectively from the hoods, or if your hands get jolted off the hoods.
Its no good being on the drops if you can't simultaneously get your ass off the back of the saddle, because you need to distribute your weight between both wheels.....you don't want all your weight thrown onto your front wheel just as you are setting up for a fast downhill turn, or just as you have to negotiate lumpy tarmac.
.....as illustrated in the 2 pictures you put up on the previous page.

(By the way, riding off road didn't suddenly start when "MTBs" were imported from across the pond. I started riding with the CTC in the mid sixties, and Sunday runs generally involved the odd track, ford, etc. ...this was on 27x11/4 inch tyres, with drops, sidepull or cantilever brakes, mudguards, saddlebag and 5 gears.
On the bomb sites in London you could just go and pick up discarded roadster bikes with 3 speed hub gears and 26x13/8 tyres.....as penniless schoolkids we used to strip them down to the bare essentials, lower the gearing as much as possible and ride them on the bomb sites and any "empty" land we could find....including parks and commons, and the council landfill.

edit....as an aside, just look how high the saddle is in the 3 side on pictures you posted. The riders knee is locked out straight, backside is in a "normal" position on the saddle (not off the back) and the rider is still toe down to reach the bottom pedal .
Last edited by 531colin on 24 Jan 2023, 8:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
zenitb
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by zenitb »

531colin wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 7:58pm
(By the way, riding off road didn't suddenly start when "MTBs" were imported from across the pond. I started riding with the CTC in the mid sixties, and Sunday runs generally involved the odd track, ford, etc. ...this was on 27x11/4 inch tyres, with drops, sidepull or cantilever brakes, mudguards, saddlebag and 5 gears.
On the bomb sites in London you could just go and pick up discarded roadster bikes with 3 speed hub gears and 26x13/8 tyres.....as penniless schoolkids we used to strip them down to the bare essentials, lower the gearing as much as possible and ride them on the bomb sites and any "empty" land we could find....including parks and commons, and the council landfill.
all my youthful off roading was exactly as you describe above Colin. Raleigh Wayfarer with bombproof SA 3-speed hub and 26x13/8 tyres. Many of the routes we did are now classified as "MTB trails"!!! I remember looking on in awe as my friend showed me his ... <drum roll> 10 speed bike .. with a weird and high tech looking front mech!!!

That said when MTBs finally arrived it was like a dream come true. 18 gears !!!! 1:1 bottom gearing!!! Proper off road tyres!!! Brakes that actually stopped you !!! Needless to say I was an "early adopter" :-)

Cheers

George
Nearholmer
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by Nearholmer »

I do appreciate the effort, but not one word of that supports why
weight on outside (down) pedal
gives any benefits.

There is a huge amount of waffle in there (about wet roads, and gear selection etc etc ... ), so forgive me if I missed the relevant sentence!
I’m not sure if that is addressed to me or not, but whether it is or isn’t, re-read what I wrote.

I’m fairly certain that weight on the outside pedal ensures that the rider’s weight falls exactly (or very closely) on the line between pedal contact points. That ensures that t has no tendency to tip the bike to one side or the other, it is stable.

Weight thrown n he outside pedal will tend to act against eh inward lean of the bike, allowing fine control by changing the lean angle, while weight on the inside pedal will add t lean angle, tending to create an uncorrectable “runaway”, where he bike tips over into the corner.
5E12B314-92FA-439A-ABE1-5B2970860FC0.jpeg
You can easily test this by cycling slowly with one foot down, bum off the seat, and changing the lean f the bike by pivoting about the tyre contact points. On non-slippery ground one can lean the bike a very long way, while moving very slowly, by pressing the handlebars against the turning force exerted by the down pedal. Press the other way very far, and you will fall over.

Th forces at play change with speed, of course, so that at high speeds the effect of weight on the outside pedal is less, and the “pedal up on the inside” is more about not grounding as the bike lean to counteract centrifugal (centripetal?) force becomes great.
zenitb
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by zenitb »

531colin wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 7:58pm

To descend safely requires that......
1. you can operate the brakes effectively
2... etc
I agree with your first point in principle Colin .. so there are a couple of underlying issues there regarding using the brakes while on the drops

1) Are the brake levers easily reachable ? To my surprise this is actually raised in the GCN video I posted. In my case I have big hands, wear XL gloves, but still needed to adjust my Shimano 105 STI levers to be closer to the bars. Something for the OP to check - are you straining to reach the brake levers while on the drops Doff? Often there is an adjustment screw that will bring them closer to you ... ping back if further details needed ?

2) are the drop bars themselves at a reasonable height ? We have discussed this with the OP before of course but my feeling is that many riders use the hoods too much because the drops are simply too low for them, and some muppet at the bike shop (or distributer, or factory) has sawed the steerer tube off without considering the end user. A stem riser is usually the fix for this. Another thing for Doff to check on his bike - although I think he has already looked at this?

Hopefully we are not blitzing the OP with too much advice :-)
doffcocker
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by doffcocker »

Thanks a lot again all, I'll be reading through all replies in moe depth shortly.

For now, just a few observations from my ride tonight.

1. I slide my backside backwards to begin a long descent, and I find it impossible to maintain that position.
2. I struggle taking sharp turns, even on flat land. For example getting round bollards on a supermarket car park can be daunting. I must admit I never had great control on my old bike in this respect but feel particularly challenged by this on the new bike.
3. I actually feel ok with all four fingers of my right hand covering the brakes and my left hand and fingers wrapped round the forward-pointing part of the hood. Its when I reposition my two middle fingers onto the front of the brake levers to get full control of both brakes that I feel vulnerable somehow.
4. Hands on the hoods, and feet in a 3/9 o clock position is just a non-starter going down any reltively steep descent, the weight on the front end just feels too much.
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PedallingSquares
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by PedallingSquares »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 4:52pm I do appreciate the effort, but not one word of that supports why
weight on outside (down) pedal
gives any benefits.
There is a huge amount of waffle in there (about wet roads, and gear selection etc etc ... ), so forgive me if I missed the relevant sentence! x
It's all there in the link/quote in simple terms the man in the street can understand.
eg.
To lean out with your upper body, you get more perpendicular pressure on the front wheel and therefore more control. This can compensate for the horizontal force to the outside as a result of the centrifugal forces. This reduces the chance of slipping. This enhances the effect of pressing down the outside of pedal.
There's also an equation for the mathmatics/physics types.
Sometimes people over think things.It works.Look at photos of Pros descending(I have) and they're all using this technique.I'm sure there will be a detailed explanation on some Physics website somewhere but I'm also sure that if there was a better/faster way the Pro teams would use it!
mattheus
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by mattheus »

PedallingSquares wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 11:07am It's all there in the link/quote in simple terms the man in the street can understand.
<sigh>

This is the sort of thing I expected; I REALLY must resist discussing physics on cycling fora, no matter how intriguing the topic might (intially) be ...
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531colin
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by 531colin »

You balance a bicycle by getting the wheels under the centre of mass of the bike plus rider.
So when going straight, the wheels are vertically under the centre of mass.
If you turn the bars to the left, the bike steers to the left. However the bike plus rider has momentum, so it will carry on in a straight line; the wheels are no longer under the centre of mass and the bike plus rider will topple to the right.
In a force diagram, this is represented by an additional force; the centre of mass now has 2 forces acting on it, gravity acting vertically and centripetal force acting horizontally (to the right).
To stay up on 2 wheels, the rider must lean the bike/rider combination at the angle of the resultant force. (the resultant force is the sum of the 2 forces)
oaklec
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by oaklec »

Looking at the pics in the first post, those hoods look enormous. Maybe they are simply too big for the OP's hands.
Jupestar
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Re: Why can't a get a secure grip of my new hoods?

Post by Jupestar »

Have we ruled out that the OP is simply over reaching and chucking to much weight on the front wheel with the body wieght being carried on the arms?
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