Heat in the home

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My central heating is set for what range?

I don't have central heating
8
13%
below 18
22
37%
18-20
23
38%
21-22
2
3%
23-25
2
3%
25-plus
3
5%
 
Total votes: 60

Jon in Sweden
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

mjr wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 7:49pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 4:50pm Air conditioning is going to become a reality of life in the UK. It's mad that we don't have it in a more widespread fashion. Each year, the majority of people in the UK suffer badly through the various heatwaves as internal temperatures exceed 25c, 30c and more.
Widespread air conditioning is mad. The problem is that the majority of people in the UK either can't (due to bad design, not lack of air con) or don't know how to control their home's temperature.
About 4 days before we moved in, we had the air/air heat pump installed in our main living space. It doubles up as an AC unit in summer. For the first four weeks after we moved in, the average daily high here was a smidge under 30c. There was no let up and it doesn't matter what your house is made of, if you want sub 25c temperatures, you need artificial cooling.
Not necessarily, if you vent an insulated house at night, then keep the shutters on the sun side set to shade during the day (using the shaded windows for light, which is plenty). For example, the high last 7 July here was 36°c, but the indoor temperature never reached 26°c and it only reached 25°c at 8pm. That's in an underinsulated 1990 English brick+tile house. I'm sure later houses or better-insulating materials could do better, if only people knew how (which will differ for different house styles) and ideally had things like automated vents and shutters (or sash windows).

Still put up the solar but use the electricity for more necessary things.
If you have air/air heat pumps, then they work equally well as a/c units. How many cars are sold these days without a/c?

It's naive to think that only solar shading can control indoor temps. For a start, very few houses are built in the UK with solar shading in mind. Secondly, if you have solar panels, your energy for a/c is provided for free, with zero emissions. Thirdly, why is it wrong to want to be cool too?

Venting a house at night works to a point, but if you're in a situation where every day is 30c plus and nights are close to 20c, you will exceed 25c indoor temperature on the upper floor every day. It's just maths in the end. We're lucky here, due to the aforementioned a/c and also having a lake to jump in 500m from my front door, but I really used to struggle in the UK in hot spells.

The world's climate is warming. The UK will start to seriously struggle with summer highs as there is little provision in UK house design to minimise excessive heat gain in summer. My brother's fairly newly built Persimmon home routinely exceeds 30c upstairs in summer. Exacerbated no doubt by the density of the development and the associated urban heat island effect.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

No one has mentioned shutters... Almost every French house has them. They keep a building cool.

Unfortunately someone removed the shutters from our house but neighbouring properties still have them where they are used to retain heat in winter.

Outside the glass or inside the glass they have different functions. Perhaps outside shutters are an answer to overheating upper floors.

We have insulating blinds and thick curtains which work really well in cold weather. A low tech answer to controlling temperature without use of electricity.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

al_yrpal wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 9:52pm No one has mentioned shutters... Almost every French house has them. They keep a building cool.

Unfortunately someone removed the shutters from our house but neighbouring properties still have them where they are used to retain heat in winter.

Outside the glass or inside the glass they have different functions. Perhaps outside shutters are an answer to overheating upper floors.

We have insulating blinds and thick curtains which work really well in cold weather. A low tech answer to controlling temperature without use of electricity.

Al
I love the roller shutters in Germany (Jalousien). I'm half German, and my grandmother's house (along with everyone elses) had them. A great way to keep heat and light out.

I'm surprised they aren't popular elsewhere.
francovendee
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by francovendee »

We have shutters on this old house, a mixture of roller shutters and wooden ones. The make a huge difference to the heat inside, Summer and Winter.
There is a downside, when it's cold we keep most of them closed during the day and night but it's feels like living in a dungeon.
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squeaker
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by squeaker »

853 wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 7:03pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 3:40pm
Building standards were downgraded by the coalition govt back in the day, justified on the back of increasing housebuilding and "all regulation is bad". See how well that went.
I think it was more a case of improvements being put on hold and, as I said six weeks ago, the required amount of floor and wall insulation was increased by 50 percent last year.
Code for sustainable homes was scrapped in 2015, so that's nearly a decade wasted and still ventilation (with heat recovery) is not being taken seriously (except by Passivhaus) :roll:
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

I sit here watching on tv the story of folk struggling with the cost of living and particularly cost of heating and feel very sorry for them.
My wifes sister and husband live in a remote 20 roomed farmhouse. Their income is a few pounds over the level that you can claim benefits. All they have is a coal fired Rayburn and a stove which is supposed to heat a few radiators and doesnt. They were complaining about constantly feeling cold so on Saturday we went to Primark and bought them both the insulating suits I have been banging on about. We gave them the suits Sunday. Yesterday we received a grateful phone call from them saying its the first time they have felt warm for a month, they were delighted. The tops we bought them were Parkas made of the same sort of recycled material.
These suits arent expensive, £16 or so. The best thing someone could do is issue these suits free of charge to anyone who cant afford heating. Instant warmth and comfort

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
wheelyhappy99
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by wheelyhappy99 »

Code for sustainable homes was scrapped in 2015, so that's nearly a decade wasted and still ventilation (with heat recovery) is not being taken seriously (except by Passivhaus)
Something else to thank George Osborne for.
https://eciu.net/media/press-releases/2 ... ergy-bills

The article mentions £200 per household extra per year. A more recent report I saw reckoned the resulting aggregate extra on UK bills for domestic energy is now about £2Bn per year.

With ideological opposition to regulation, not to mention the size of donations from developers to the party in office, nothing has been done until very recently.
A former colleague writes in 2017:
https://theecologist.org/2017/jan/25/sh ... iency-laws

The Scottish government is setting the pace by mandating Passivhaus standards on future new build. I will not hold my breath waiting for Gove to do the same.
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mjr
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by mjr »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 8:27pm
mjr wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 7:49pm Not necessarily, if you vent an insulated house at night, then keep the shutters on the sun side set to shade during the day (using the shaded windows for light, which is plenty). For example, the high last 7 July here was 36°c, but the indoor temperature never reached 26°c and it only reached 25°c at 8pm. That's in an underinsulated 1990 English brick+tile house. I'm sure later houses or better-insulating materials could do better, if only people knew how (which will differ for different house styles) and ideally had things like automated vents and shutters (or sash windows).

Still put up the solar but use the electricity for more necessary things.
If you have air/air heat pumps, then they work equally well as a/c units. How many cars are sold these days without a/c?
No idea. Do you really mean to imply that car a/c units are actually air/air heat pumps, rather than using resistive heating?
It's naive to think that only solar shading can control indoor temps. For a start, very few houses are built in the UK with solar shading in mind. Secondly, if you have solar panels, your energy for a/c is provided for free, with zero emissions. Thirdly, why is it wrong to want to be cool too?
First, it doesn't matter if it's built consciously for it, retrofitted, or accidental. Secondly, solar panel energy is only free if you ignore the panel costs and you generate more than you need or can export. Thirdly, nothing's wrong with wanting to be cool, but why's it right to burn the planet to do it?
Venting a house at night works to a point, but if you're in a situation where every day is 30c plus and nights are close to 20c, you will exceed 25c indoor temperature on the upper floor every day. It's just maths in the end.
Indeed. It's just maths. We can maintain a 8 degree differential (measured on the upper floor) without air-con in our house which is nothing special for the UK, insulation-wise, so I think it would be possible for most.

When days here were 30-35c, the nights tended to be 16-18c. Maybe if the nights were warmer, we'd exceed 25c but not by much. Not by enough to resort to air-con.
My brother's fairly newly built Persimmon home routinely exceeds 30c upstairs in summer. Exacerbated no doubt by the density of the development and the associated urban heat island effect.
Yes, that's probably a mix of being surrounded by hot surfaces and Persimmon's famously bad practices. It doesn't have to be that way and throwing air-con at it is an awful way to work around those problems. Persimmon would probably mess up and fit the air con backwards anyway!
al_yrpal wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 9:52pm No one has mentioned shutters...
Except me, literally two posts before that. :roll:
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Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

mjr wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 7:49pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 30 Jan 2023, 4:50pm Air conditioning is going to become a reality of life in the UK. It's mad that we don't have it in a more widespread fashion. Each year, the majority of people in the UK suffer badly through the various heatwaves as internal temperatures exceed 25c, 30c and more.
Widespread air conditioning is mad. The problem is that the majority of people in the UK either can't (due to bad design, not lack of air con) or don't know how to control their home's temperature.

Lunacy indeed when simple measures to control heat are so simple and effective in our temperate islands. Concentrating on problems in isolation then throwing technology and money at them rather than considering all our problems continues to screw up the planet - consumption, consumption, consumption. Many more people die from the cold and damp than from hot weather.

Should our summers become more like those in the Dordogne, we perhaps should simply (for it is very simple) adjust our houses, offices and lives and learn to live with our environment rather than fighting it. Radiation is the key to comfort - being surrounded by cool surfaces while warming the air is no less uncomfortable than cool air when surrounded by hot, radiating surfaces, however I'm not averse to reversing heat pumps for UFH. We should look to Mediterranean regions to see how they traditionally manage the heat, there's a lot to learn and it costs little. Minimise solar radiation and ensure a good air flow at night.

As al_yrpal says, shutters - especially external - are hugely effective at preventing internal temperatures from soaring, as are simple sun canopies. Homes with low ceilings and insulation above do tend to overheat (and fail to cool off at night) especially upstairs since little thought is given to ventilation. In a damp country where mould is a huge problem, we should give it much more attention now we're building houses which are so draught free.

Screenshot 2023-01-31 at 15.52.22.png
or
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simonineaston
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by simonineaston »

or don't know how to control their home's temperature.
After much consultation, including with contributors to this very forum! I decided to hang canvas sheet out on the balcony during heat waves, in order to avoid the sheet glass windows heating up... Result - a significant drop in the temp of the rooms during day time of about 3 or 4 degrees. Enough to go from uncomfortable to OK-ish.
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Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

simonineaston wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 4:31pm After much consultation, including with contributors to this very forum! I decided to hang canvas sheet out on the balcony during heat waves, in order to avoid the sheet glass windows heating up... Result - a significant drop in the temp of the rooms during day time of about 3 or 4 degrees. Enough to go from uncomfortable to OK-ish.
mjr wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 3:47pm Indeed. It's just maths. We can maintain a 8 degree differential (measured on the upper floor) without air-con in our house which is nothing special for the UK, insulation-wise, so I think it would be possible for most.

When days here were 30-35c, the nights tended to be 16-18c. Maybe if the nights were warmer, we'd exceed 25c but not by much. Not by enough to resort to air-con.

My brother's fairly newly built Persimmon home routinely exceeds 30c upstairs in summer. Exacerbated no doubt by the density of the development and the associated urban heat island effect.

We had two days of 38C, with nights falling to 21C last summer., the first really hot weather in a house with modern-style construction and insulation (stone/PIR board/bb/plasterboard). It was perfectly tolerable but a long way short of the comfort of the previous 300yo one with its 30 inch stone walls.

I was working from home for both and decamped to an East-facing room after lunch on the first (26C) as the folding patio doors (West-facing) were letting in way too much radiation even with a huge umbrella shading things as the sun moved round (33C indoors in that room).

The next morning, I taped a double layer of kitchen foil (externally) to the large area of glass and enjoyed a cool 26C throughout the afternoon, the paving stones got very hot with the added reflected heat. It cleaned them perfectly!
Biospace
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Biospace »

wheelyhappy99 wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 2:06pm The Scottish government is setting the pace by mandating Passivhaus standards on future new build.
This should be a game-changer for UK housing construction and very good news, if it's done well. What are the estimated costs over and above today's standards?
hemo
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by hemo »

Since the wife and I moved in to our current abode some 22 years ago( built 1958) I have never done any thing about the downstairs hall east facing glass entrance door & sidelight in to the cold porch in winter and the sauna porch in summer, like wise the west facing rear glass door. The kitchen and hall are open plan and the front door opposing the rear door , the kitchen is always cold and hall mediocre with a rad adj to the door. Both doors are draft proof and draught free but boy does the heat cool quickly when it hits all that doule glazed glass.
Finally this week I feel a placebo affect as I have fitted some simple thermal door curtains easily fixed with velcro to both the east and west glass doors, next plan is also to add some reflextive window film to the glass door for the summer as from the west the sun heats the kitchen up terribly . Another window overlooked is the stair landing window on a southerly aspect this gets the high sun from april/ may till August /sept so another to get some reflective window film added.

Currently sitting in the living room with no heat on and the 15c feels very comfy.

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Jon in Sweden
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by Jon in Sweden »

mjr wrote: 31 Jan 2023, 3:47pmInteresting counter arguements
Apologies for the unusual way of quoting you - this forum's architecture is a bit antiquated and if I directly quoted you quoting me, it would get very messy!

Very few cars have heat pumps. It's coming through, but only in a few models. The reason I brought up that point was to illustrate that we take AC for granted and are fully accepting of it in cars, but not houses.

If and when we get solar panels fitted to our house, we will become a net exporter of electricity. Our estimated annual usage is 8,000kwh and with our roof our production forecast is 12,500kwh.

I applaud your ability to manage the temperature within your house, but that's not possible for everyone. Not everyone has the time to manage solar gain. Insulation certainly helps, but not all houses have the space for more insulation. The last few summers in Devon, we were incredibly careful about curtain/blind management, along with nighttime venting etc. We still struggled to keep the upstairs below 28c. Some houses are better than others.

Equally, here in SE Sweden, our summer days are over an hour longer and it's considerably warmer here than the warmest places in the UK. Heat pumps are ubiquitous and they are used to cool, as well as heat.

I was chatting to my brother last night. They've just had an extension put on to their house, and he remarked that everything about it was of considerably better quality than the construction of their house. He's an engineer too, so he knows what he's looking at. He also added that last summer (during the heatwave) that his office upstairs got to 38c (it faces south). Devon didn't get anywhere near as hot as other parts of England too.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Heat in the home

Post by al_yrpal »

With a more extreme climate in the uk we will have to adapt. From what I have observed looking at show homes the big builders are just observing the regs in order to compete. The regs will no doubt change but at the moment there is no recognition of the problem of upstairs overheating. Salford University has full sized houses in a lab. I wonder whether they take into account solar radiation heating via windows ?

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
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