Teachers

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pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Teachers

Post by pwa »

Carlton green wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 6:33pm Funnily enough I was talking to a semi-retired teacher just this evening, someone that I’ve known for decades. Apparently it’s really difficult to fill teaching posts, advertisements simply don’t generate the applications that they once did and those that do apply are usually poor quality candidates. Of course there are exceptions but the general trend, over years, is downward. Of course they’re not the only public body that’s suffering, a friend in the NHS says similar: they struggle to find anyone to appoint … and what’s turned out by the Universities lacks the ability to complete practical tasks and requires further training from non-existent budgets delivered by staff members who have already got far too much to attempt to do.

In the meantime large corporations effectively evade paying taxes and so do high wealth individuals.
I've been hearing that too. And I've heard of unqualified "teachers" doing subjects they barely have a grasp of because there are no really suitable applicants coming forward. Even in private schools charging a lot.
ossie
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Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: Teachers

Post by ossie »

My daughter is a first school teacher. She feels no need to strike, She graduated over 5 years ago and is on nearly £40k at the age of 29.
Her partner is a chippy on a similar wage so they're grossing £80k, nice flat, plenty of holidays, nice car.

I guess it depends on the area but there are few vacancies in her school pyramid.

She does however say that all of the pressure and stress comes from within, Ofsted etc. Pay is the least of her issues but the internal pressures have had her looking at alternative employment at times. I have to remind her she has a bloody good pension but at her age it doesn't even compute.
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Cugel
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Re: Teachers

Post by Cugel »

pwa wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 4:33pm
bikes4two wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 9:44am
Stradageek wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 9:00am I fully support all that has been said in this thread but.... defence? From whom? I see no armies ready to cross the channel and invade :?
I'm guessing (hoping) that you aren't serious and just 'poking the bear' for reaction?

In this interconected world with much relience on long supply channels and even more dependence on computing technology and the internet, there are so many other ways to harm, nay cripple a nation than just boots on the ground.

Anyway, back to the topic of teachers and strikes. There's plenty of info about the striking parties and what they are asking for, but I see little in the way of where does the extra money come from. Will it be extra taxes, more expensive products - I just don't know - do you?
I wonder if a sort of IOU might be the answer. The public sector has been ground down by below inflation pay awards for more than a decade, the latest being yet another attack on the families of public sector workers. But the coffers are empty. So why not a serious commitment from the Government for above inflation pay rises in the years ahead, starting about a year from now, when the economy has started to pick up? And a little bit of give with the current round of negotiations.
As others have noted "the economy" is doing fine for the fatcats, shareholders and various others of the New Model Aristocracy. There isn't a shortage of money but rather a surfeit of greedy parasites sucking as much wealth as they can out of the efforts of others and stashing it away tax-free.

The economy doesn't need "picking up". It needs a severe reorganisation from the kleptocracy model to a shares-for-all model.

Cugel, generally against theft, usury and serfdom.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Teachers

Post by Jon in Sweden »

I have great sympathy for the situation that teaching staff find themselves in. My daughters' former school in the UK was a small Devon village primary in a generally middle class area and still had to have regular fund raising events to find the money for basic supplies.

My wife and I were at a meeting at my older daughter's school yesterday (my younger daughter, much to her delight, has gone back to nursery as they don't start school until they are 6 here) discussing my daughter's educational needs. She was most of the way towards an autism diagnosis in the UK, but it takes years and we left before it was complete.

I explained the situation in the UK to the teachers at the meeting (stagnant pay, huge classes, lack of supplies, funding, 55-60hr weeks) and it was met with disbelief.

For the 1hr meeting, my wife and I had the company of my daughter's teacher, the special educational needs teacher, the school nurse and the head teacher. There was no rush. Totally relaxed. My daughter's class has 13 pupils. It's quite a large school (320 pupils) and all the classes are small. Each pupil has their own iPad.

Due to me resuming work and my wife studying Swedish full time, our daughters are starting breakfast clubs at school and nursery. No charge at all. Nursery is near enough free too, and legally, the cost cannot exceed your child benefit.

If the UK wants to understand why it's a country in decline, it needs to have a long hard look at how it educates and supports future generations.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Teachers

Post by al_yrpal »

Keep hearing the stock market mentioned. If you were in public service or a private its likely where your pension is being generated by means of dividends. Interest on some of savings too.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Teachers

Post by mattheus »

reohn2 wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 5:14pm
mattheus wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 10:27am EVERYONE has been hit hard by the Ukraine Crisis.

"
Oil and gas giant Shell has reported record annual profits after energy prices surged last year following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Profits hit $39.9bn (£32.2bn) in 2022, double last year's total and the highest in its 115-year history
"
It's how unbridled capitalism works dear boy,didn't you know?

PS,satire again :wink:
It seems to be catching on!
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Teachers

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 10:37am
reohn2 wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 5:14pm
mattheus wrote: 2 Feb 2023, 10:27am EVERYONE has been hit hard by the Ukraine Crisis.

"
Oil and gas giant Shell has reported record annual profits after energy prices surged last year following Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Profits hit $39.9bn (£32.2bn) in 2022, double last year's total and the highest in its 115-year history
"
It's how unbridled capitalism works dear boy,didn't you know?

PS,satire again :wink:
It seems to be catching on!
Yep! :D
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Teachers

Post by reohn2 »

Some home truths about private schools charity :- https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/privat ... fHKjGDgSvq
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
briansnail
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Joined: 1 Sep 2019, 3:07pm

Re: Teachers

Post by briansnail »

Face facts.The UK no longer generates the money to pay for all these services eg schools.UK does not make anything any more.We buy all our stuff at very cheap rates.Liz Truss tried borrowing we know what that that did for mortgage rates. Labour will come in next election apart from the green deal but cannot offer anything new.No one wants to pay more tax to reward Teachers much as they deserve it.
*************************************
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francovendee
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Re: Teachers

Post by francovendee »

briansnail wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Face facts.The UK no longer generates the money to pay for all these services eg schools.UK does not make anything any more.We buy all our stuff at very cheap rates.Liz Truss tried borrowing we know what that that did for mortgage rates. Labour will come in next election apart from the green deal but cannot offer anything new.No one wants to pay more tax to reward Teachers much as they deserve it.
*************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
I'm sure many feel differently.
Jon in Sweden
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Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Teachers

Post by Jon in Sweden »

briansnail wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Face facts.The UK no longer generates the money to pay for all these services eg schools.UK does not make anything any more.We buy all our stuff at very cheap rates.Liz Truss tried borrowing we know what that that did for mortgage rates. Labour will come in next election apart from the green deal but cannot offer anything new.No one wants to pay more tax to reward Teachers much as they deserve it.
*************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
Nail on the head there.

Travel around anywhere in Northern Europe and manufacturing of all kinds is alive and well. We live in a fairly poor part of Sweden (relatively speaking) but within 40 minutes of where we live, we have a major Ikea factory, the base of Volvo's heavy plant production and Nordan windows (superb quality triple glazing - I know friends in Scotland who've had them on their houses). Not to mention dozens of sawmills.

The best example I can think of what is fundamentally wrong with manufacturing in the UK is this:

I used to run a sawmill in Scotland and supply western red cedar for beehives. I supplied a 3 generation (set up just after the war) beehive manufacturer in Gloucestershire with a lot of their raw materials.

They latterly had a lot of bother with some of the incomers who'd bought large houses on the lane leading to their business. They complained bitterly to the council about the occasional lorries that would pass (1-2 a week, perhaps) and eventually managed to get the council to reprimand the business for storing drying sawn timber (in stacks, neatly) in one of their fields.

This business had been in place for over 60 years, providing local employment and income. For the local residents to take issue with them and then (worse still) for the council to rule against the business is ridiculous. The countryside isn't some frozen-in-time version of an English idyll. It has to work or it'll die.

Conversely, I once visited a trailer manufacturer in Bavaria in Germany. State of the art facility (robotic welding and everything!) in a beautifully quaint little village. Not a hope in hell it'd get through planning in the UK.

I realise I'm bashing the UK a bit in a few posts at the moment. I'll try to reign it in, but we had genuinely strong reasons for leaving and it's really frustrating to have watched things go so badly in the UK over the past 13 years. Hard to see how it'll improve.
Carlton green
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Re: Teachers

Post by Carlton green »

francovendee wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 5:50pm
briansnail wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Face facts.The UK no longer generates the money to pay for all these services eg schools.UK does not make anything any more.We buy all our stuff at very cheap rates.Liz Truss tried borrowing we know what that that did for mortgage rates. Labour will come in next election apart from the green deal but cannot offer anything new.No one wants to pay more tax to reward Teachers much as they deserve it.
*************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
I'm sure many feel differently.
You’re right, many will feel differently but have they sound grounds to do so? To my own observation the UK has become a socially, morally and financially unbalanced placed. Everyone demands services but next to nobody wants to pay taxes. If (yes it is if) we get a Labour Government in the next time around then one of their biggest jobs will be to get the British Public to understand the need for the social contributions (by way of taxation) that make it possible for society (via the country’s live infrastructure) to function.

There’s no such thing as a free lunch yet too many people eat all that they can manage to and then try to get someone else to be burdened with their tab.

I note that Jon above has experienced different (better) in other countries, we could certainly learn a lot from some Baltic and Nordic countries.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
pete75
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Re: Teachers

Post by pete75 »

francovendee wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 5:50pm
briansnail wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Face facts.The UK no longer generates the money to pay for all these services eg schools.UK does not make anything any more.We buy all our stuff at very cheap rates.Liz Truss tried borrowing we know what that that did for mortgage rates. Labour will come in next election apart from the green deal but cannot offer anything new.No one wants to pay more tax to reward Teachers much as they deserve it.
*************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
I'm sure many feel differently.
I wonder how it would go in an opinion survey. Ask a lot of people the vague question "Do you want teachers to be paid more?" and many, perhaps the majority, would say yes. Put the same question in more precise terms "Do you want to be made poorer to make teachers richer?" and most would say no.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Teachers

Post by Jon in Sweden »

pete75 wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 4:50pm
francovendee wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 5:50pm
briansnail wrote: 3 Feb 2023, 4:41pm Face facts.The UK no longer generates the money to pay for all these services eg schools.UK does not make anything any more.We buy all our stuff at very cheap rates.Liz Truss tried borrowing we know what that that did for mortgage rates. Labour will come in next election apart from the green deal but cannot offer anything new.No one wants to pay more tax to reward Teachers much as they deserve it.
*************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
I'm sure many feel differently.
I wonder how it would go in an opinion survey. Ask a lot of people the vague question "Do you want teachers to be paid more?" and many, perhaps the majority, would say yes. Put the same question in more precise terms "Do you want to be made poorer to make teachers richer?" and most would say no.
I don't think that pay is the primary reason for the strikes. It's about working conditions, working hours, school funding and a lot more.

The pay that teachers get is quite reasonable, if they worked normal working weeks in reasonable conditions. They don't though, and they are picking up so much of the slack whilst the Tory government presides over the defunding and deprioritisation of our children's educations and futures.

Carlton green, two posts earlier, hit the nail on the head by highlighting that no one wants to pay tax any more. We demand services, expect benefits but avoid taxes. This mindset pervades all echelons of society.

I listened to an interesting interview with Torsten Bell of the Resolution Foundation the other day, where he stated that his belief is that the increase in inequality in the 80s, followed by the stagnation of the 2010s has built the foundation for where the UK presently finds itself. People didn't mind rising inequality, provided they themselves were doing OK. But the productivity gap, the lack of growth, the lack of investment has all brought the enormous inequality that exists in the UK into sharp focus. By their calculations, the average household in the UK (when compared to countries we regard ourselves as equal to, such as Australia, Canada, Germany, France, the Netherlands) is £8800 worse off. That is a colossal amount of money, and goes a long way to explain why the poor in the UK are so much poorer than in comparable nations.

With so many students at schools coming in malnourished, teachers have an uphill battle to give them a decent education. They go above and beyond, working 50% more than their contracted hours in order to do the best for our children. If the UK doesn't properly fund children's education, it quite literally has no future. Especially given that in a post-Brexit Britain where importing labour is so difficult.
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Cugel
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Re: Teachers

Post by Cugel »

Pay more tax? Willingly, as long as two things happen:

* Everyone pays their fair share of tax, which I would define as more as a percentage of your income as that income increases.

* Tax is spent on public services and infrastructure that benefit everyone directly (not via some bogus trickle-down effect with the very rich paying little or no tax as per Trussock and trickling down nothing).

Such a tax regime in Blighty used to be approximated before Thatcher, to a degree at least. Such tax regimes exist elsewhere, those in some Nordic countries being the best known examples to we Blighters. However, even if Starmer gets in, it seems highly unlikely that big business, finance capitalism and their PR organs in the so-called newspapers will allow any substantive change from the kleptocracy we have now.

**********

Our household income is around £45,000 per year before tax. We usually save a good portion of that. We'd be willing to pay 25p in the £ (maybe more) rather than the current 20p in the £ instead of saving ..... if the above conditions were met. We'd be annoyed if increased taxes just went to feed more billions into the offshore accounts of the rich via criminal schemes to milk government coffers as seen during covid; or to subsidise criminal big businesses raping and pillaging the planet whilst ripping off consumers, a la oil companies and similar.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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