How close do you ride to each other

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Philip Benstead
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How close do you ride to each other

Post by Philip Benstead »

I use to ride with a local group, when on the flat sometime riding at brisk pace say 18mph plus.

The distance between the front wheel and the rear wheel would be inches. This would give sheltering effect to the rider at the rear.

I have seen photographes on a London group website show rider on a flat road spead out around 2 metres apart.

Given that some groups limit the size of the group to 15 to reduces conflict with other road users doesn't the speading out offset this.

Have modern cycling group lost the ability to ride in a tight group.

As I am a cycle instruxtor I seen children age 10 plus who ride in a tighter group than these group.

What are others experances.
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tatanab
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by tatanab »

CTC club rider since 1968 - many members also raced. The club run bunch rode probably no more than 12 " behind the rider in front, and close enough side by side to be able to reach across and change gear (down tube or bar end) of the other rider when clowning around. Distances apart increased with speed.

I noticed a change in the late 1980s which coincided with some cycle action groups becoming CTC sections. Instead of a tight bunch, riders would be spread out along and across the road in a very loose crocodile (the sort of distance apart that you have noted). This manner of riding steadily infiltrated older CTC groups (I have ridden with 7 DAs over the years) along with other changes to rider discipline that I did not like, and consequently I stopped riding with them about 25 years ago preferring to ride out on my own to meet them at the cafe (old git with rose specs).

I wonder if the change is partly because in olden times a new rider would be gently taught how to ride in a group, whereas even in the 80s it was becoming unacceptable to instruct others.
Nearholmer
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Nearholmer »

I joined a club for the first time about six years ago because I was interested in learning to ride in a group.

Despite the strange comment above, I received instruction, as does everyone on joining up, and I got coached by very good ride leaders.

Riding distance was about 18” clearance all round, and the group was coached to keep fairly tight to create a “motor vehicle sized block”. The number per group has now been limited by the club to keep that block size, with rides split into two groups, ten minutes apart, if there are too many participants.

All very well organised indeed.

And, it turned out that I really didn’t enjoy it! A lifetime of solo cycling has left its mark, and I found riding in a group both scary and tedious. I enjoyed the gossip as the stops though.
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Philip Benstead
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Philip Benstead »

Nearholmer wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 12:22pm I joined a club for the first time about six years ago because I was interested in learning to ride in a group.

Despite the strange comment above, I received instruction, as does everyone on joining up, and I got coached by very good ride leaders.

Riding distance was about 18” clearance all round, and the group was coached to keep fairly tight to create a “motor vehicle sized block”. The number per group has now been limited by the club to keep that block size, with rides split into two groups, ten minutes apart, if there are too many participants.

All very well organised indeed.

And, it turned out that I really didn’t enjoy it! A lifetime of solo cycling has left its mark, and I found riding in a group both scary and tedious. I enjoyed the gossip as the stops though.

18inchs in bunch I would ride about 3 inch from somebody's back wheel.


I think the time of the club run may be numbered.
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Nearholmer
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Nearholmer »

Odd that the club concerned has an ever-increasing membership, and turns out c10 rides a week in winter and c20 rides a week in summer.

Maybe experience has taught clubs that 3” apart is too blasted close for safety. At 18” the potential for a complete pile-up is at least slightly reduced.
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by rjb »

Once used to group riding you can keep very close to the rider in front of you to gain maximum shelter. Not directly behind so you risk running into them but slightly to one side so that the ebb and flow of the group allows some temporary overlap of wheels as the speed changes. Never had a problem with this style of riding although it can be disconcerting for those not used to it. :wink:
Yes accidents can happen if you don't concentate but that's a risk one takes with all cycling.
Last edited by rjb on 4 Feb 2023, 1:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nearholmer
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Nearholmer »

Again, different from what I was taught.

We were taught to ride in two clear files, no overlapping wheels, so that the group can rotate properly while maintaining a fixed width on the road.

I guess practices differ.
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by PH »

Nearholmer wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 12:22pm Despite the strange comment above, I received instruction, as does everyone on joining up, and I got coached by very good ride leaders.
I think the comment only seems strange to you because the club you ride with is of a very different nature to a CTC group.
CTC groups are much more casual than your average club, the range of ability, skills and equipment much wider. Many of the riders infrequent participants, a lot unfamiliar with group riding, most wishing to ride in a way where peering over the hedge doesn't cause a pile up!
Even if what you describe were the objectives of the group, a large proportion of the routes favoured would be unsuitable for that style of riding. In essence, touring rides, going places by bike, with some others, in a social manner.

My answer to the OP is - It depends on who, what, where... but always at a distance every rider is comfortable with.
As to facilitating other vehicles to pass, that comes secondary, but shouldn't be ignored, it's to no one's advantage to have a long line of cars behind. Breaking into smaller groups so cars can leap frog, pulling in where convenient to let any tailback pass, singling out where appropriate, these are things the ride leaders should be considering and implementing.
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Philip Benstead
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Philip Benstead »

PH wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 7:16pm
Nearholmer wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 12:22pm Despite the strange comment above, I received instruction, as does everyone on joining up, and I got coached by very good ride leaders.
I think the comment only seems strange to you because the club you ride with is of a very different nature to a CTC group.
CTC groups are much more casual than your average club, the range of ability, skills and equipment much wider. Many of the riders infrequent participants, a lot unfamiliar with group riding, most wishing to ride in a way where peering over the hedge doesn't cause a pile up!
Even if what you describe were the objectives of the group, a large proportion of the routes favoured would be unsuitable for that style of riding. In essence, touring rides, going places by bike, with some others, in a social manner.

My answer to the OP is - It depends on who, what, where... but always at a distance every rider is comfortable with.
As to facilitating other vehicles to pass, that comes secondary, but shouldn't be ignored, it's to no one's advantage to have a long line of cars behind. Breaking into smaller groups so cars can leap frog, pulling in where convenient to let any tailback pass, singling out where appropriate, these are things the ride leaders should be considering and implementing.

As somebody who rode in Kent the highest populated county
I seldom had problems with car piling up behind the group
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Nearholmer
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Nearholmer »

I think the comment only seems strange to you because the club you ride with is of a very different nature to a CTC group
I think you are probably right. It’s a tightly disciplined style of group ride, even at the lower paces, because that’s what they’ve found works safely.

As I said, I didn’t actually enjoy it, I found it stressful (presumably I’m not good at trusting other people) and a bit tedious, so these days I’m mainly back to riding on my own, although I do greatly enjoy club ‘gravel’ rides, which are naturally a lot less formal, on the odd occasions that they don’t clash with other activities.
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Paulatic »

My answer to the OP is it varies as to who I’m riding with. Some of the last group riding I did I decided not to get within 2 metres of a particular rider. When that rider did fall off I was sufficiently far enough to avoid the inevitable.
Having rode a small distance with the OP in a National 400 it’s so long ago I can’t remember what distance I kept. :D
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by axel_knutt »

Nearholmer wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 12:22pmAnd, it turned out that I really didn’t enjoy it! A lifetime of solo cycling has left its mark, and I found riding in a group both scary and tedious. I enjoyed the gossip as the stops though.
This. I've never been in a club, but I really don't like cycling close to other bikes, it makes me more nervous than cycling in motor traffic, you can't hear cyclists coming, and we wobble. Even worse is cycling among others whilst confined in a cycle lane between kerbs and/or bollards.

I don't see any difference between bikes tailgating and cars, ok on the race track, but not on the roads.
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Philip Benstead
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Philip Benstead »

Paulatic wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 9:10pm My answer to the OP is it varies as to who I’m riding with. Some of the last group riding I did I decided not to get within 2 metres of a particular rider. When that rider did fall off I was sufficiently far enough to avoid the inevitable.
Having rode a small distance with the OP in a National 400 it’s so long ago I can’t remember what distance I kept. :D
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by Audax67 »

UAF recommendation for pack riding is 2 metres offset front to back and 1 metre from the rider alongside. It's usually a good bit tighter. I get nervous, though, when I can see someone's front wheel out of the corner of my eye without looking round.

When slipstreaming with a chum & riding relays we usually end up knowing everything there is to know about t'other bloke's rear derailleur.
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Re: How close do you ride to each other

Post by mjr »

Nearholmer wrote: 4 Feb 2023, 8:40pm
I think the comment only seems strange to you because the club you ride with is of a very different nature to a CTC group
I think you are probably right. It’s a tightly disciplined style of group ride, even at the lower paces, because that’s what they’ve found works safely.
That's no way to ride. No time to look at the scenery if you're trying to hold tight formation! Ride with 2 second rule gap in front.

And someone mentioned singling out when appropriate: unless you're on a road with lanes 5+m wide, it's never appropriate and puts the group at high risk of being close passed or crushed to the kerb.
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