BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mark R »

No I mean keeping the injection system in good order. Yes injectors need to be replaced from time to time and it's not overly expensive. Again blowby and leaky valve stems can be fixed by a rebore, new pistons, new guides and valves. If you've experience of working with engines I'm surprised you don't know about such things.
An engine rebuild is not "servicing" neither is swapping out injectors.

People don't rebuild engines or swap out injectors to achieve marginal emissions improvements - the MOT test certainly doesn't require it (the emissions have to be really quite horrendous in order to fail the UK emissions test).

For older vehicles it is pretty much uneconomical anyway (do you know much it costs to rebuild a diesel car engine?). Aging diesel cars are not going to become desirable future classics, (in the electric age they will be a major embarrassment).

Why is your average motorist going to pay to have injectors replaced or pay for engine work when it will not make any noticeable difference to MPG or performance? OK so it will it make it stink a bit less..... - most people don't care ("all that money..... just to make it smell better!") - they are not the ones who have to breathe it. They can just carry on changing the oil and filters and run it up to 3, 4 or even 500,000 odd miles. It will be eyewateringly filthy; toxic as hell, but hey it still does 50mpg - what's not to like?
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Stevek76 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 5:20pm That said I think Cambridge is proposing some discounts to lower income households, along with exemptions for eg car club cars. Plenty of scope to vary the rate on these sort of things though care always needs be taken not to water the scheme down to being useless.
They certainly better do. Here's what the GMB say. https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/c ... e-25628444

Gordon White, GMB London Region Organiser said: “Thousands of people make the daily commute into Cambridge to service the city. These key workers are support staff in our schools, work cleaning and cooking in colleges, look after the sick in Addenbrooke’s and populate almost all of the service industries in Cambridge. These people are the cogs on which this city runs.

“Even before the cost of living crisis, most of these people would struggle to ever afford to live in the city. So, it is incredibly disappointing to see a new tax on some of the lowest paid. It is also extremely naïve to assume everyone can hop on a bike and do a day of manual work having cycled in from outer Cambridgeshire.

“The Cambridge GMB Branch has called for a rethink of the policy, which is designed to put a wall between the haves and the have-nots of the city. Its implementation will entrench rural poverty further, where many of the buses they are proposing to introduce are only covering provisions previously cut in recent years.

"It is all smoke and mirrors. It could only be thought up by people who have never done a manual job in their lives and shows a political class out of touch with anyone who isn’t in a well-paid office job or lucky enough to be able to cycle a short distance to a lecture hall."
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
Posts: 2006
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

The single biggest problem for the diesel engine is that the green lobby convinced politicians to promote it for use in private vehicles which didn't make best use of it.

As long ago as 2013 I read a research paper which determined non-exhaust particulate pollution to be of a similar level to exhaust pp, at a time when vehicles in use had significantly greater exhaust particulate emissions. One highlighted problem with much of this sort of pollution is that it does not pollute just once, but is sent back into the air repeatedly with each passing vehicle until washed into our water courses to cause harm to the fish we eat. Many fewer struggle to understand this problem today than ten years ago, but it's still not widely understood for its dangers - the public mind has been focused on their car exhaust pollution.

Tyres are composed of many unregulated toxic materials, require vast amounts of energy to make and are problematic to recycle. Making ever heavier, more powerful cars would seem to be a strange way of moving forwards, given the increasing awareness of pollution and its effects. https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/243333/ ... rom-tires/

geocycle wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 9:52am One benefit I didn’t anticipate of EVs is that they are very efficient at modest speeds. Pootling around country lines at 30-40 mph or start stop around town seems to boost range considerably. Conversely hurtling down the motorway at 80 mph drains the battery. Let’s hope they make folk more conscious of speed.
I think this is one of the factors in the push to heavier batteries with more range. And yes, EVs are superb in congested traffic compared with most of what we use at present, I see most British cities restricting the use of ICEvs within 15 years.

Nearholmer wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 6:36pm It’s a question of rationing the use of a scarce resource, that is road space or ability to pollute, and the classic way of achieving fairness in rationing is to allocate everyone, irrespective of rank or prosperity, the same number of tokens per unit time.

It’s a good idea to make the tokens non-tradable too, otherwise rich people buy them all up from poor people.
Rationing in the way you describe is one of the very few ways I can see a route to improve matters, although the only way for there to be (almost) no trading would likely be to track movements of both vehicles and people.
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Mick F
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: BEVs

Post by Mick F »

Sorry, not read all this thread, or filled in the questionnaire.

We will be going Up North for a wedding in May. 300+ miles each way, and driving four of us in our Yaris Hybrid.

The very idea of an electric car is wonderful, but we can't get Up North 300miles away in an EV without having to stop to recharge ............ and perhaps wait for a vacant charger. It'll take an hour or more maybe twice enroute.

As there's four of us, we can refuel maybe half way - or even get all the way there on the one tank and we can swap drivers during a ten minute stop for the loos.

Train instead?
Home to Plymouth, how?
Taxi to Plymouth? £40odd perhaps - and then that again coming home.
Where we're going for the wedding is a long way from the main line, so it'll be another taxi there and back.

Cheaper, quicker, faster, more convenient is to drive ............ and NOT an EV ................ sadly.

PS:
When I was in the RN I commuted every two weekends from Glasgow to Gunnislake in a Peugeot 205 diesel.
I did the 500 miles from there to here, and from here to there, non-stop. 500miles each way. Try that in an EV.
Mick F. Cornwall
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Mick F wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 4:07pm Sorry, not read all this thread, or filled in the questionnaire.

We will be going Up North for a wedding in May. 300+ miles each way, and driving four of us in our Yaris Hybrid.

The very idea of an electric car is wonderful, but we can't get Up North 300miles away in an EV without having to stop to recharge ............ and perhaps wait for a vacant charger. It'll take an hour or more maybe twice enroute.

As there's four of us, we can refuel maybe half way - or even get all the way there on the one tank and we can swap drivers during a ten minute stop for the loos.

Train instead?
Home to Plymouth, how?
Taxi to Plymouth? £40odd perhaps - and then that again coming home.
Where we're going for the wedding is a long way from the main line, so it'll be another taxi there and back.

Cheaper, quicker, faster, more convenient is to drive ............ and NOT an EV ................ sadly.

PS:
When I was in the RN I commuted every two weekends from Glasgow to Gunnislake in a Peugeot 205 diesel.
I did the 500 miles from there to here, and from here to there, non-stop. 500miles each way. Try that in an EV.
There speaks someone who hasn't used an EV.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Mick F
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: BEVs

Post by Mick F »

OK Bob, I'll bite! :D

Tell me which EV will get four us to Lancashire without a recharge.
300miles from here.
Tell me one that you can buy sub 10grand.

Furthermore, tell me which one will get the 500miles to Glasgow from here without a recharge.
A390 and back roads from Gunnislake - Old A30 - M5 - M6 - M74 - M75 - M8 and into Glasgow.
Mick F. Cornwall
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[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Oh, so *now* you're adding price constraints that assume a mature second hand market. FUD much?

I was actually looking at the "It'll take an hour or more maybe twice enroute." comment.

Let's look at something about the same size your Yaris - the Peugout 208
224 miles wltp
So that will happily do the journey in two legs, and take about 30 minutes to top up between. So that's a half hour break after about three hours of driving... Very much more pleasant.

Yes, it's about £27k new compared with about £22 for a Yaris - but it's also a slightly larger vehicle, and substantially cheaper to run.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7882
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mike Sales »

I have just listened to a summary of the latest IPCC report on PM.
I doubt we will be able to reach net zero soon enough without changes in how we live.
Much of this discussion is about whether BEVs can replace ICVs with no impact on our lifestyle in this relatively rich country, which got its lead in industrialisation by burning fossil fuels.
I do not have much knowledge of this corner of a much bigger question, but I would surprised if we can escape climate catastrophe without what many might see as a big sacrifice in the conveniences of our comfortable lives.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Nearholmer
Posts: 3927
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: BEVs

Post by Nearholmer »

but I would surprised if we can escape climate catastrophe without what many might see as a big sacrifice in the conveniences of our comfortable lives.
Arnold Schwarzenegger has made an even bigger name for himself than the huge one he had before by saying that technology will allow us to have our cake and eat it, but I’ve never been convinced. There is going to have to be some adjustment of life, however good and however rapidly delivered the technology proves to be.

It might be expressed as “adjust to circumstances in a planned way, or get adjustment foist upon you by circumstances, in an unplanned way”.
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al_yrpal
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Location: Think Cheddar and Cider
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Re: BEVs

Post by al_yrpal »

al_yrpal wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 9:31am I have decided to get a BEV. My spec...

Cost no more than £5k
Range 750miles but I will settle for 500 with heater and lights on continuously
Able to fully charge in 5 minutes
More than 5k charging stations nationally, each with 6 charging sockets.
Electricity cost per mile less than ICE vehicle of similar size.

Al
We will probably get there in the end.....they did with windmills, but electricity generation is nowhere near green as yet.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Stevek76
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Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: BEVs

Post by Stevek76 »

pete75 wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 9:25am They certainly better do. Here's what the GMB say.
Unions are as bad as MPs and shopkeepers when it comes to rubbish transport takes regarding the people they claim to represent in my experience. Some of it here comes from that odd segment of the 'traditional' working class that are working class by roots only and haven't quite got over seeing cars as aspirational things.

Regardless that's a great deal of hyperbole that largely doesn't reflect the facts. We already know that very few of the 'lowest paid' own and drive cars (NTS, census, various other ONS surveys) and the few that do would benefit massively from being rid of that financial burden and having alternative transport options, not a system that forces them to drive. Similarly the idea that Cambridge is a city of the well off surrounded by impoverished rural areas is clearly nonsense as a relatively quick glance at the deprivation maps shows. The most deprived areas in the vicinity are within Cambridge and the congestion charge boundary.

It's not like there aren't 4 park and rides around the city either.

Like London's charge and Nottingham's WPL this will turn out to be a lot of noise and ultimately a success (in 'progressive' terms). And like those and the clean air zones, the take up of the low income support options will be far lower than these groups think it will as they're simply ignorant on the size of the 'lowest income driver' segment.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Mark R »

The single biggest problem for the diesel engine is that the green lobby convinced politicians to promote it for use in private vehicles which didn't make best use of it.
How was it the "green lobby"?

I think you would find it was the "motoring lobby"......They were told they had to lower the CO2 emissions of their products - they didn't like the sound of being forced to make smaller, lighter vehicles ( larger vehicles are much more profitable ). No problem, they could just start fitting diesel engines, motorists could be convinced that by buying a diesel they were "doing their bit" and business could continue unabated.

At the time medical experts (the "health lobby"?) raised the alarm over the extra pollution this would cause but our leaders were assured by the motor industry that advanced emission controls would soon be available and diesel exhaust pollution would cease to be a concern. Well we all know how that turned out don't we?
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pwa »

Stevek76 wrote: 19 Mar 2023, 5:20pm
pwa wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 7:06pm So I decide I can't afford to drive on a particular local road at 9am every morning, but the people down the road with (and this is true) a selection of Porsches for weekdays and a Lambo for the weekends, get to enjoy roads that have fewer less wealthy drivers on them.
This hypothetical person can however get a now much more reliable (and potentially subsidised) bus service or use that nicely funded cycle infrastructure to get to work, probably faster. And the extra £s can be continually invested in roadspace reallocation towards more space efficient modes.

Again, it doesn't matter what restrictions you implement, the wealthy will always have options to spend to get around them. And realistically, whilst the typical inbound car commuter might not be as rich as the people down the road, if they are commuting a substantial amount of miles by car every day they are clearly not low income and certainly not as low income as some of the people in neighbourhoods they likely drive through who have to deal with all their externalities.

That said I think Cambridge is proposing some discounts to lower income households, along with exemptions for eg car club cars. Plenty of scope to vary the rate on these sort of things though care always needs be taken not to water the scheme down to being useless.
One's take on this is normally influenced by one's local circumstances, and for me that is as a rural dweller just a few miles from a small town, so unlikely to face any road pricing barrier in the near future. My drive to work is entirely rural apart from the last quarter of a mile. If I had to take the bus to do that journey, I think I'd just pull the plug and retire a bit earlier than planned. But in larger conurbations things are different. If I lived on the edge of Cardiff and had to get to the centre to work, I expect I'd be reliant on their frequent bus services by now. Driving several miles though a densely urban place is unappealing and not even fast, so the buses seem relatively okay as an option.
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: BEVs

Post by pete75 »

Stevek76 wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 8:24pm
pete75 wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 9:25am They certainly better do. Here's what the GMB say.
Unions are as bad as MPs and shopkeepers when it comes to rubbish transport takes regarding the people they claim to represent in my experience. Some of it here comes from that odd segment of the 'traditional' working class that are working class by roots only and haven't quite got over seeing cars as aspirational things.

Regardless that's a great deal of hyperbole that largely doesn't reflect the facts. We already know that very few of the 'lowest paid' own and drive cars (NTS, census, various other ONS surveys) and the few that do would benefit massively from being rid of that financial burden and having alternative transport options, not a system that forces them to drive. Similarly the idea that Cambridge is a city of the well off surrounded by impoverished rural areas is clearly nonsense as a relatively quick glance at the deprivation maps shows. The most deprived areas in the vicinity are within Cambridge and the congestion charge boundary.

It's not like there aren't 4 park and rides around the city either.

Like London's charge and Nottingham's WPL this will turn out to be a lot of noise and ultimately a success (in 'progressive' terms). And like those and the clean air zones, the take up of the low income support options will be far lower than these groups think it will as they're simply ignorant on the size of the 'lowest income driver' segment.
If very few of the lowest paid own and drive cars , why do all the minimum wage and close to minimum wage food processing factories round here have large car parks full of cars?
Yep , I'm sure you know more about workers in the Cambridge area than their union reps.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: BEVs

Post by [XAP]Bob »

In the lowest household income decile in this country car ownership is definitely a minority.
In the next decile it's only just not a minority.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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