An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
wheelyhappy99
Posts: 232
Joined: 5 Jul 2020, 11:12am

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by wheelyhappy99 »

I think one could say that 'the first cracks in the dam of societal tolerance' in Germany began from 2015 onwards and when the AfD started to win major numbers of seats in the Bundestag - currently 78 - though that's down from the 2017 election. However the AfD gets many votes in the East both nationally and in the Länder. I don't think that typifies Germany, but it's a sign that immigration is an issue.
There's certainly more support for the AfD in the former DDR Länder. Contributing factors may be their hey have a very different history for the past century and
wheelyhappy99
Posts: 232
Joined: 5 Jul 2020, 11:12am

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by wheelyhappy99 »

There's certainly more support for the AfD in the former DDR Länder. Contributing factors may be their very different history for the past century and even more traumatic population changes. Bear in mind that national borders of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland and Germany all shifted westwards in 1945-8. Following which the long standing German speaking population's of those countries, not all of whom were of German descent anyway, were forcibly expelled, mainly westwards. So the population of Meck Pom, Saxony and other regions suddenly included 30% or more destitute people who had often been top dogs socially and economically. Then they had 45 years of communism, during which time there was no reconciliation with 20th century German history. Then they found themselves the poor relations after reunification.
I spent last spring along the Baltic coast, and there's on going huge investment by the federal and regional governments, but it's not yet Bavaria or Baden Württemberg.

Societal collapse was the original claim. Is this it?
And, from visits long ago I am aware to be of colour there puts you in a much worse situation than it does here. Lots of discrimination.
One of my German friends is, by birth, Nepali, married to a German. He told me that living in a small town he was on the receiving end of remarks about his colour when he first settled there. They have adult kids, all university educated, who stay with us occasionally. None has any issues with discrimination.

Perhaps we should ask the migrants staying in places besieged recently by xenophobic and or racist protesters if they feel discriminated against?

Apologies for the earlier incomplete post. Thumb on phone....
ossie
Posts: 1793
Joined: 15 Apr 2011, 7:52pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by ossie »

al_yrpal wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 8:21am My knowledge of immigration issues in Germany is limited to conversations with long standing friends in Bavaria. They are sore about unification and very sore about immigration largely because both have contributed to noticeable falls in pensions. And, from visits long ago I am aware to be of colour there puts you in a much worse situation than it does here. Lots of discrimination.

Al
That's about right. I was brought up near Bielefeld in the old West Germany. I cycled the Rhine over a month in late 2015 from Rotterdam to Basle through Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Bonn and Koblenz when these cities were clearly struggling to cope with the weight of numbers after Merkel opened her doors. There were vast numbers of refugees (mainly single men) literally camped along the Rhine and gathering in large groups in city centres. I spoke with many locals who weren't happy with the situation, it was quite tense. This was followed by the Cologne immigrant attacks on women a few months later. Indeed the majorty of Germans were against Merkels refugee policy and a fair bit or retribution was handed out .

https://www.dw.com/en/merkel-germany-re ... a-54769229

My last visit was a cycling tour from the UK in 2019 where I returned to my old British army base and the accompanying housing estates over three weeks . On cycling to my old estate I was greeted by a large group of Syrian and Afghan refugees (men) stood outside my old house. I engaged with them and they told me the houses were all being renovated to house refugees and some had moved in. They all spoke English and none of them really wanted to be in Germany, they wanted to be in the UK - simply because of the language barrier. They said were were struggling to integrate.

I also visited our old barracks, this was opening as new finance University, our school was now a nursing college. The British army were still in situ and I was fortunate enough to be given a tour of the site and meet with the civilian German assistant of the Brigadier who was in charge of handing multiple British Army bases and housing back to the German Government in North Rhine Westphalia .

The message in areas where refugees were being housed on these estates in large numbers was one of distrust and inward hostility towards the local Government and immigrants themselves, most were unemployed there was little integration. Many felt the housing should have gone to German families.

In 2020 only half of all immigrants to Germany since 2013 were in employment. I quote "immigrants are disproportionately involved in violent crime including murder, manslaughter, assault and rape. But this is partly because many of the immigrants are young men who tend to be more frequently guilty of such offenses."....err where are the women and children then ?

Political scientist Herfried Münkler said 2015 had "exposed a rift in German society" and radicalized politics.

https://www.dw.com/en/five-years-on-how ... a-54660166

So yes there are plenty of cracks, the country is still deeply divided over Immigration, far more I'd argue than the UK is.
tim-b
Posts: 2091
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by tim-b »

The data backs ossie up too, this is from the The World Values Survey, started in 1981. 400k respondents and 110+ countries
https://www.uk-values.org/news-comment/ ... /pub01-115

We're amongst the more liberal in other areas too
https://www.uk-values.org/news-comment/ ... /pub01-116
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by mattheus »

tim-b wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 7:26am The data backs ossie up too, this is from the The World Values Survey, started in 1981. 400k respondents and 110+ countries
https://www.uk-values.org/news-comment/ ... /pub01-115
Stating "110+ countries" is a bit at odds with your report:

"Of 17 countries, the UK is least likely to say...
[list contains Russia, Nigeria, South Korea and Iran]
...
The report focuses on a cross-section of 24 countries selected based on the availability of reliable and weighted data and then narrowed down,"
tim-b
Posts: 2091
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by tim-b »

It's from The World Values Survey general intro, but yes I see your point 👍
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Jdsk »

"Department for Education hit with pre-action protocol letter over placing of unaccompanied asylum seeking children in hotels":
https://localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/chi ... -in-hotels

"Protect unaccompanied asylum seeking children":
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/prote ... um=website
includes how to donate.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 12:04pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 12:01pm I think someone has had the difference between the 700k migrants we accept each year and the sub10k who used to arrive by small boats deliberately muddied by an increasingly right wing media.

As other arrival methods have become more difficult the number arriving by boat has "soared" - to under 30k, or less than 5% of immigration.
Yes, in percentage terms it's a large increase in boat arrivals, but only because the absolute number is very small (and many of these would have been displaced from other transport modes).

In the UK 75% of asylum claims are granted, and 49% of those which are initially denied are then granted on appeal.
Statistically fewer than four thousand of the people arriving by boat last year would not fall under the protection of the convention, but we are failing to process them, and failing to provide routes which are less dangerous than the boats, so boats it is.
Yes, the conversation is enormously improved by clarifying which category of migrant is being discussed, and by including the numbers.
But, of course, only if the numbers are correct:

"The statements by Ministers that you asked about do not reflect the position shown by the Home Office’s statistics. I have engaged with their offices to bring this to their attention and share the UK Statistics Authority’s expectations for the use of official statistics and data in public debate."
https://uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk ... -backlogs/

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24636
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: An Illegal Bill to Stop Immigrants becoming Slaves

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 7:57am
wheelyhappy99 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 8:07pm ...
Perhaps this will put the number of people coming to this country in context.

20230314_194954.jpg
...
It does. Thanks for adding those facts.

PS: Three recent "mis-speakings" by Ministers about migration:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/suella ... ion-claim/
https://fullfact.org/immigration/rishi- ... m-backlog/
https://fullfact.org/immigration/suella ... og-labour/

and another set of lies in current circulation:
https://fullfact.org/online/pensioners- ... -benefits/
Letter from the UK Statistical Authority:
https://uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk ... -backlogs/
concludes:

"The statements by Ministers that you asked about do not reflect the position shown by the Home Office’s statistics. I have engaged with their offices to bring this to their attention and share the UK Statistics Authority’s expectations for the use of official statistics and data in public debate."

Jonathan
Post Reply