Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
mattheus
Posts: 5043
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by mattheus »

maximus meridius wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 10:21pm From Yorkshire to Barcelona is approx 1000 miles/1600 km. Assuming your username means you're in Yorkshire. And Barcelona is northern Spain. Seville is a lot further.

For the sake of argument let's ignore the probably more carbon intensive links at each end of the journey. So using "national rail" as the main transport mechanism, your journey will generate 128kg of CO2 - 40gm per km, twice (there and back).

https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

"National rail" is about the lowest carbon form of long distance transport.

So your journey will generate about three and half times the emissions of the lifetime emissions of a steel framed bike. And is roughly the same amount as a aluminium frame.

The problem isn't the CO2 to do with the bike. The problem is the journey itself. Your "concern for the environment" is admirable. But don't fool yourself that choosing a "low carbon" bike to leave in Spain will make any substantial difference. And of course if you fly there, well....
Useful numbers, thanks. [My bolds added.]

Yours and my grandchildren need us to get humanity's total emissions down, and we know that people will continue to take these kinds of journeys. I might buy an extra aluminum bike this year (about the same impact as that Spain trip); surely it would be a good idea for you to persuade me NOT to buy that extra bike? That would be as good for the planet as choosing not to travel to Spain.

So persuade us to shop+ride more sustainably - your grandchildren will thank you :)
maximus meridius
Posts: 791
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 10:55pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by maximus meridius »

mattheus wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 8:52am
maximus meridius wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 10:21pm From Yorkshire to Barcelona is approx 1000 miles/1600 km. Assuming your username means you're in Yorkshire. And Barcelona is northern Spain. Seville is a lot further.

For the sake of argument let's ignore the probably more carbon intensive links at each end of the journey. So using "national rail" as the main transport mechanism, your journey will generate 128kg of CO2 - 40gm per km, twice (there and back).

https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint

"National rail" is about the lowest carbon form of long distance transport.

So your journey will generate about three and half times the emissions of the lifetime emissions of a steel framed bike. And is roughly the same amount as a aluminium frame.

The problem isn't the CO2 to do with the bike. The problem is the journey itself. Your "concern for the environment" is admirable. But don't fool yourself that choosing a "low carbon" bike to leave in Spain will make any substantial difference. And of course if you fly there, well....
Useful numbers, thanks. [My bolds added.]

...and we know that people will continue to take these kinds of journeys...
Why? Why do we "know" that? My lifetime airmiles, at the age of 65, are 2000. And all of those except ~50 were for work (not that that's necessarily a justification). I'm alive, I've lived, raised a family, worked all my life, and so on. I haven't died because I didn't screw up the planet flying for fun. In fact my "fun" airmiles are the 50.

That's why humanity is doomed. Because of assumptions like yours. That people won't change. It's possible that when it gets bad enough and martial law has to be implemented people might change, if they are looking down the barrel of a gun. But it seems to be thought that by that time it will be too late. The thawed permafrost, melted ice caps and glaciers, etc.
mattheus wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 8:52am I might buy an extra aluminum bike this year (about the same impact as that Spain trip); surely it would be a good idea for you to persuade me NOT to buy that extra bike? That would be as good for the planet as choosing not to travel to Spain.
What happened, you missed the part of the critical thinking course where they covered the False Dilemma fallacy?

How about you don't travel to Spain and you also don't buy a new aluminium bike? It's not either/or.

But that thinking is very popular, as exemplified up thread:

"I'm not stupid, I do lots of other good things therefore I can do this bad thing without feeling guilty."

There's a virtue signalling version of that psychology. I have a relative who travels to Cape Town on regular basis (on a plane). While there they do "good work", with people with dark skin. So of course this travel is justified, in their mind. And yes, they are a bit "lefty", and "right-on". Which are the worst kind of self justifiers, in my experience. I suppose there's some sort of psychological term for this, "preserving ego" or something. I won't bother looking it up.

And of course blaming the government, "big oil", Margaret Thatcher, Boris, or whoever is very popular. It lets people avoid facing themselves in the mirror and taking responsibility.
mattheus wrote: 22 Mar 2023, 8:52am So persuade us to shop+ride more sustainably - your grandchildren will thank you :)
What a completely bizarre idea. Are you saying the problem isn't stupidity, or ignoring simple science. It's that I'm not spending enough time persuading other people? Stuff that - the evidence is plain and simple. The basic science is actually plain and simple (vibrational modes of CO2 molecules, warming effect, etc.).

So no, I'm not going to waste time trying to "persuade" strangers on internet forums to do the right thing. I'll spend time reducing my own CO2 outputs. I got a couple of tonnes off a while ago by ditching a gas guzzler. Next will be home energy, I just need to make sure that the assertions by people like Dale Vince about REGOs is correct.
maximus meridius
Posts: 791
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 10:55pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by maximus meridius »

tykeboy2003 wrote: 21 Mar 2023, 4:49pm We have a small motorhome and would probably be doing quite a bit of touring. Not the most environmentally friendly way as compared with a rail journey as you point out, but better than flying.
Not much. Read the following, strip out the bits to do with hired cars and hotels, and you'll see that there's not much difference.
https://www.trianglerv.com/blog/post/ho ... -footprint
Of course, your RV may run on potato peelings or something. It might be very small. Or whatever. And those sorts of numbers are very journey dependent.

Still, worth exploring actual numbers, don't you think? And what with you not being stupid, and having a degree in Chemistry, and having been a Senior Software Developer for 30 years, numbers shouldn't be a problem, eh?

But you might not want to explore the actual numbers, as they may uncover some mistaken assumptions. And as you are retired and don't damage the environment because of all the other good things you do (or don't do), maybe a bit of RVing is OK, yes?
mattheus
Posts: 5043
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by mattheus »

Anyone seen good deals on new carbon bikes?
maximus meridius
Posts: 791
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 10:55pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by maximus meridius »

mattheus wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:11pm Anyone seen good deals on new carbon bikes?
Yes, being challenged is very discomfiting, isn't it? Probably best to avoid it if at all possible.
mattheus
Posts: 5043
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by mattheus »

maximus meridius wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:18pm
mattheus wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:11pm Anyone seen good deals on new carbon bikes?
Yes, being challenged is very discomfiting, isn't it? Probably best to avoid it if at all possible.
Keep it coming my friend.
cycle tramp
Posts: 3531
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by cycle tramp »

maximus meridius wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:18pm
mattheus wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 1:11pm Anyone seen good deals on new carbon bikes?
Yes, being challenged is very discomfiting, isn't it? Probably best to avoid it if at all possible.
With deepest apologies to Carlton Green...

..although sometimes getting it wrong cheers you up. I was convinced the other day that Sram were about to attempt bicycle derailleur dominance, but I was wrong (well, perhaps they still are but have left some wriggle room). PH was patient enough to correct me, and it put me in a good mood.

I've also defered to CJ arguement, which is that 700 size wheels will probably outlast all other sizes...

In answer to the your question. Actually, I probably am a bit of troll, thinking about it. Although I try hard not to be. And in deference to Carlton Green's wishes I've not posted on this thread until now.

Congratulations on loosing the gas guzzler! And thank you for the calculator links. I don't suppose you have any other links about Green energy investment, do you? Appreciated if you have. And is there another calculator- let's say I have to drive to London, no alternative, but this calculator works out the co2 emissions and converts them into the number of trees I have to plant and grow to convert the co2?
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
Carlton green
Posts: 3645
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by Carlton green »

I’m not quite clear about how my wishes relate to Cycle Tramps post above, funnily enough I look forward to reading what he’s got to say. Perhaps it’s a case of me wishing that the thread had stuck to its original subject matter rather than being spoilt by divergences that really add nothing helpful to this thread and might add something useful to another.

Interesting comments about Sram and 700C, and I enjoyed reading the other thread about sram: viewtopic.php?t=155535
I think most manufacturers have realised the potential of getting things wrong further down the line and ending up with something that has taken up thousands of hours of R&D, new machining and tooling, new stock and then finding that no-one wants it because it won't work with anything else. It's generally not good for business to be going totally unique with your own operating system. Unique bits, yes but you still need an element of cross-compatibility.
Credit Rareposter. Yes, from time to time some company tries to dominate the market with their unique product(s). IMHO the wise cyclist generally chooses stuff that is compatible with other makes and ignores the too specialised.

I’ve just been watching an old film about Bill Houston (I’m a kind of mechanised tramp), a Scot and RSF member who traveled all over the globe on his ten speed road bike. Folk like that should be reminders to us all that bikes don’t need to be complex to work well (ie. do their task of carrying us along) and that a simple bike can do say a hundred thousand miles.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
cycle tramp
Posts: 3531
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by cycle tramp »

Carlton green wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 7:26pm I’m not quite clear about how my wishes relate to Cycle Tramps post above, funnily enough I look forward to reading what he’s got to say. Perhaps it’s a case of me wishing that the thread had stuck to its original subject matter rather than being spoilt by divergences that really add nothing helpful to this thread and might add something useful to another...

I’ve just been watching an old film about Bill Houston (I’m a kind of mechanised tramp), a Scot and RSF member who traveled all over the globe on his ten speed road bike. Folk like that should be reminders to us all that bikes don’t need to be complex to work well (ie. do their task of carrying us along) and that a simple bike can do say a hundred thousand miles.
You're right, I didn't want to drift this thread. But saying with it, that sounds like an interesting film....
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
maximus meridius
Posts: 791
Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 10:55pm

Re: Can we make bicycles sustainable again?

Post by maximus meridius »

cycle tramp wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 5:38pm I don't suppose you have any other links about Green energy investment, do you?
No, I don't. I hold shares in a company that plans to invest $5 billion dollars in renewable energy this year. But you'll have to do your own investment research, I'm not going to give financial advice to strangers.
cycle tramp wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 5:38pm And is there another calculator- let's say I have to drive to London, no alternative, but this calculator works out the co2 emissions and converts them into the number of trees I have to plant and grow to convert the co2?
I don't know, I've never seen such a calculator. But it's very easy to work out the first bit. It might take a bit more work to do the second. In fact the efficacy of tree planting as a CO2 reduction strategy comes under the heading of "not that simple". Why don't you do some research and report back?
Post Reply