Gravel bikes off tarmac?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
Nearholmer
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Nearholmer »

I was mega-impressed when a guy came on a club gravel ride on a Moulton. Now, it was at a very benign time of year, very dry indeed, and it was a fairly benign route, but man and machine breezed it, including quite a bit of bumpy old hedgerow bridleway.
cycle tramp
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by cycle tramp »

Nearholmer wrote: 20 Mar 2023, 5:05pm
Before the marketing people got their teeth in gravel bikes were whatever you rode.
And, apart from what turned out to be a bit of a flash in the pan in the 90s, after which MTB seemed to disappear into ever more extreme courses in designated woods, very few people were doing it. Off-road, but short of MTB, was very, very definitely not popular; it was niche.

Now, because of marketing on the back of gravel road racing in the US, there are a lot of bikes around that are suitable for varying degrees/kinds of it, lots of people are doing it, and getting a buzz out of it, and as a result it is a whole lot simpler to get tyres and drivetrains that are suited to it, all of which I personally regard as A Good Thing.
Looking back to the mountain bike era, I think it depended on whom you rode with, certainly one of the first things I did with mine was take it off road and ride it through the local woods and fields..
..I suspect what killed the mountain bike, was the development of design from something with a reasonable riding position and frame mounts for racks, and mudguards.. to machines which had more and more extreme racing positions, no useful mounts and more and more suspension...
Suddenly if you weren't jumping off 3 foot ramps or attempting to do 40 mph down hill on a forest track you weren't really mountain biking- not that we cared. Watchet, it's harbour and the fish & chip bar were the other side of the quantocks from us - so we just used our bikes to roll over the quantocks and back again.

One of the nice thing about the whole gravel bike thing is that the manufacturers/advertisers aren't pushing the competitive side of cycling - that it is more about experience than speed, and memories rather than finish positions. Which is all to the good - and its what the mountain bike designers should have done, the first time 'round.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 20 Mar 2023, 6:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cycle tramp
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by cycle tramp »

Sweep wrote: 18 Mar 2023, 6:41pm What proportion of these bikes do folk think are ridden much off tarmac/on grave/strade bianche (not a lot of those last two in britain of course)?
Or do they just give some racers/road bikers the permission they secretly crave to buy/ride a more relaxed frame, on wider tyres than their earlier devotion to 23/25mm tyres, more accommodating lower gears range? On tarmac?
I think it's the second one - a more suitable gear range and more suitable tyres. Given the state that many of our lanes are in, gravel bikes are probably welcome relief for many riders.
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pwa
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by pwa »

I have enough bicycle shaped objects in my life, but if my fingers were itching to raid the wallet I might be tempted by a gravel bike of one sort or another. They seem to me to be a positive development in the world of recreational bikes. Most of us don't want or need a fleet of ten specialist bikes, so having one that is pretty good at a variety of things is a great idea. Nice on the road, happy on smooth gravel, okay for careful use on less smooth gravel. That ticks several of my boxes.

But I am a bit out of the loop these days. Have sales and use of proper mountain bikes dipped? I still see a lot on the backs of cars travelling up to the Afan Valley trails. Does anyone here use both types of bike, a gravel bike and a mountain bike? What determines which is best for the ride you plan doing? How rough or twisty does a track need to be for you to decide an MTB is the right tool for the job? I'm guessing that gravel bikes don't do jumps. :lol: Except by accident.
cyclop
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by cyclop »

Gravel bike off road?Not for me I,m afraid.With historic elbow injuries leading to inability to fully straighten them and subsequent arthritic issues(not a big problem fortunately),full suspension for me.
Nearholmer
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Nearholmer »

Does anyone here use both types of bike, a gravel bike and a mountain bike?
I don’t personally, having missed the MTB thing of the 80s and beyond by being a bit older than most who took it up, but a lot of people do seem to have both, and on the rare occasions when I’m free to go on the club Saturday ‘gravel’ ride, it’s a right mix of bikes: MTB, gravel, the odd hybrid, even the Moulton I mentioned before.

On the gravel bikes forum though, s lot of transitioning MTBers say that the MTB ends up getting forgotten at the back of the garage once they get a ‘gravel’ - I think people get a bit fed up with doing drops in the same old woods and appreciate a bit of what amounts to off-road day touring.
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Sweep
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Sweep »

+1 to your post upthread cycletramp.
My ridgeback expedition flat bar looks to me rather like an old school mtb.
Used a lot for day rides where i might do some offroad cycling/trudging.
The planetx thing linked to above has suspension (knew before i looked really) which have no need for.
Totally with you on the positives of folk maybe getting less out and out sporty. Plenty of exercise to be had while appreciating your surroundings.
Sweep
mattsccm
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by mattsccm »

Gravel and MTB? Of course, Well I have a few that fit the description. 4 CX sort of bikes in all 4 main materials (no bamboo). The Ti is my best road/gravel bike. The steel is my commuter/gravel bike. The carbon is my club ride around the gravel bike on a Thursday night/CX race bike and the alloy is the winter road/gravel bike. Then there is the pre war fixed with knobblies that is my spare gravel bike. The MTB is my slow, foul weather gravel bike. The hybrid is the spare commuter/gravel bike. Keep a gravel bike for the road though? Nope I have 4 road bikes for that.
peetee
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by peetee »

My collection:
1. 1989 custom steel MTB; hydraulic rim brakes, 7x3 gears, 26” x 2” knobbly tyres, no suspension, straight bars.
2. 1990 steel tourer; cable rim brakes, 10x3 gears, 700x30mm knobbly tyres (light gravel bike).
3. 2021 steel Spa Elan; cable disc brakes, 10x3 gears, 700x50mm knobbly tyres, drop bars.
4. 2005 aluminium Marin MTB; hydraulic disc brakes, straight bars, f&r suspension, 9x3 gears, 26x55mm knobbly tyres.
All are competent off-road, stable and comfortable at appropriate speeds on surfaces such as this which is what I’d describe as a light, rocky & loose:
0984AC66-E576-4F29-82C9-4999F25B6EFD.jpeg
I will add that the photo is representational and I don’t ride on footpaths or in sensitive, fragile locations!
So, legalities aside, what do I mean by appropriate? Well, the limiting factors are these;
Frame integrity - for any given material the lighter the frame the less it can handle impacts. These impacts can often be lessened by using deeper tyre sections, in-built suspension or rider skill (avoiding rougher sections or skilful, flexible use of arms, legs and weight distribution).
As a group of bikes they all have shared attributes.
1 & 2 are fast, light and agile.
1, 3 & 4 Good on mountainous, loose surfaces.
1, 2 & 3 good luggage capacity.
3 & 4 upright, relaxed riding position.
1 & 3 ‘repair anywhere’ welded/brazed steel frames.
2 & 3 ‘repair anywhere’ cable brakes.
Whilst most riders would see this collection as extravagant and unnecessary I also suspect that most riders will be less adventurous in their choice of riding. I like to explore and don’t consider any area unworthy of consideration. I’m happy to ride tarmac road, forest road, muddy bridleway, gravel trail and steep, winding rocky routes up and down mountains and coastlines.
I’m also a bit more ‘tech’ than most riders. The Marin is the only off-the-peg bike on the list and each of the others were constructed to suit my riding style at the time. I adore No 1, I designed it myself to do everything and it’s more than capable but I’m not any more and it’s low front end is getting further and further away from my whining neck and shoulders. Note that it only has 3x7 gearing. Ancient tech but supremely reliable even at 34 years old. No 4 is knocking it into retirement (so I don’t have to join it) for the more technical rocky stuff but it’s big, heavy and a right handful until the wheels start rolling.
No 2 was built as an experiment but with 30c tyres you have to be careful on rocky stuff. To be fair it was designed for trails in The New Forest and there’s not much for it to excel on now that I’ve moved west. Hence bike No3 which I hope to use for bike-packing trips this summer. Plenty of luggage capacity, solid dependable frame, upright position. I use it for relaxing day rides with my partner but it’s a bit of a halfway-house for more spirited rides - it will do fast or rough but it’s not at all rewarding or exciting like 1 & 2 are.
Finally, it’s worth mentioning that cantilever brakes are not rubbish. I have used them for nearly forty years and never crashed into anything for lack of braking power. Sure, there’s poor quality canti brakes out there but good pair, properly set up and maintained will serve you well. They are, it has to be said, very easy to apply in use. I really don’t like the cable discs on bike No 3. The pull required is very heavy and the lever surface slippery and hard to hold on bumpy surfaces. It’s obvious that discs aren’t always the giant leap forward that the trade would have us believe. When people voice concern for their brakes it is often hard to distinguish between poorly serviced, hard to pull or lacking in power.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Nearholmer
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Nearholmer »

I never found cantilever brakes lacking in stopping power, but I did find it beyond my ability to completely stop them squealing - reduced it, but never stopped it.

My short experience of cable discs (TRP Spyre) was that they were less good than cantilever, needing really hard pull, and a lot more anticipation.

Hydraulic discs I’ve found SRAM Rival and Shimano GRX truly excellent, Shimano ones that I think might be MT200 very good, and some lower spec Tektro ones not great, rather ‘on’ or ‘off’
mattheus
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by mattheus »

Nearholmer wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 10:18am I never found cantilever brakes lacking in stopping power, but I did find it beyond my ability to completely stop them squealing - reduced it, but never stopped it.
Ironic; although mine sometimes squeal, it's nowhere near the volume of the road bike discs on the club-run.

We had a damp-ish ride recently and as you approached a hazard, there was no point trying to shout out any info if people were already feathering brakes due to the massive din created. I really am not exaggerating here! And that's with only about 1-in-3 using disc brakes ...
PH
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by PH »

peetee wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 8:16am Finally, it’s worth mentioning that cantilever brakes are not rubbish. I have used them for nearly forty years and never crashed into anything for lack of braking power. Sure, there’s poor quality canti brakes out there but good pair, properly set up and maintained will serve you well. They are, it has to be said, very easy to apply in use.
Good or bad, so few people want them that the mainstream manufacturers don't seem interested. They do require a level of understanding and effort that other braking systems don't. I'm sure the likes of Spa and Thorn would fit them to any of their rim brake models is asked, I doubt that happens very often. Are they standard spec on any mainstream bikes now?
I'd never call them rubbish, neither am I likely to choose them again.
Nearholmer
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by Nearholmer »

Ironic; although mine sometimes squeal, it's nowhere near the volume of the road bike discs on the club-run.
I find with the better hydraulics that there is sometimes a brief squeak the first time they’re applied after a while, in wet conditions on the road, but off road grinding noises are far more common, due to the amount of muck that gets into them. The Tektro ones on the 29er that is mostly my son’s do squeal, and I’ve tried all the cleaning techniques and a couple of different pads types, but it comes back very soo.n and I think is down to the particular metal that the disc is made from - it always has a sheen to it, whereas the best ones are the discs on my gravel-ish bike, which have a dull look about them. Different grain structure I reckon.
rareposter
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by rareposter »

PH wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 11:32am Good or bad, so few people want them that the mainstream manufacturers don't seem interested. They do require a level of understanding and effort that other braking systems don't. I'm sure the likes of Spa and Thorn would fit them to any of their rim brake models is asked, I doubt that happens very often. Are they standard spec on any mainstream bikes now?
I'd never call them rubbish, neither am I likely to choose them again.
One of the significant enabling factors for creating the gravel bikes of today (rather than the Rough Stuff bikes and "you can do a bit of off-road on this touring bike if you're careful" bikes of yesteryear) is the move away from rim brakes in general.

They're terrible for any number of reasons - riding through mud, dust, grit etc coats the rims and reduces braking performance, you wear out rims, mud clearance is greatly compromised and, crucially, the tyre size is very restricted. You start running into all sorts of overall build restrictions with rim brakes.

This wasn't much of an issue with early MTBs (running up to about 2" tyres in general) and CX bikes obviously had far narrower tyres but when tyres (and rims) started getting wider, the effectiveness of rim brakes was decreased due to the leverage problems that it creates.

Moving to discs solves all of those problems in one go - you open up acres of mud clearance, the frame and fork design can be freed up from the constraints of mounting brakes half way along them, you have loads more flexibility in rim design and tyre width and the braking is consistently more powerful and more controllable. For touring / bikepacking, the risk of fouling brake cables and the brakes themselves is greatly reduced.

Yes, we all managed fine on cantis 20-odd years ago. But no-one would ever go back to them!
mattheus
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Re: Gravel bikes off tarmac?

Post by mattheus »

rareposter wrote: 23 Mar 2023, 11:50am They're terrible for any number of reasons
< ...blah blah ...>

Yes, we all managed fine on cantis 20-odd years ago. But no-one would ever go back to them!
Even if we accept your "number of reasons", your closing statement is so erroneous that you only have to look back a few posts before yours to see it!
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