School shootings... how awful

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al_yrpal
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by al_yrpal »

Apparently a large proportion of US gun deaths are suicides. I suppose a gun makes it so easy? And, taking with you those you hate most is a bonus?

Al
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Nearholmer
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Nearholmer »

I’d be willing to believe that 80%+ of the problem is the guns.

I’ve seen plenty of “flared tempers” incidents in this country where if everyone was carrying a gun things could have got fatal. I have a feeling that shooting someone is actually less of a mental leap than punching them, which always comes with the risk of getting punched back, so that guns might both lower the threshold and raise the consequences.

On top of that, if you make access to guns simple for people who have mental health issues as a result of both their personal circumstances and being fed toxic nonsense by mainstream politicians, a warped press and tv, and a lot of fellow crazy people on the internet things are not going to go well. It’s bad enough here, but at least guns aren’t supermarket staples.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 28 Mar 2023, 4:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:04pm Apparently a large proportion of US gun deaths are suicides. I suppose a gun makes it so easy?
...
Yes, mode of suicide is highly opportunistic.

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Mike Sales
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Mike Sales »

The original subject raised was the dreadful number of massacres of school children in particular, not the toll guns take in America in general.
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reohn2
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by reohn2 »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:32pm The original subject raised was the dreadful number of massacres of school children in particular, not the toll guns take in America in general.
No but the ease with which guns are freely available leads to lunatics who own them being able to kill others and in the case of automatic guns many others in short order!
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Mike Sales
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Mike Sales »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:47pm
Mike Sales wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:32pm The original subject raised was the dreadful number of massacres of school children in particular, not the toll guns take in America in general.
No but the ease with which guns are freely available leads to lunatics who own them being able to kill others and in the case of automatic guns many others in short order!
Yes, but these school attacks are not suicides, or if they are suicide by cop, the deaths of young innocents is an unecessary complication. Neither are they confrontations made more deadly by the presence of a gun. They are usually carefully planned.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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al_yrpal
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by al_yrpal »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:32pm The original subject raised was the dreadful number of massacres of school children in particular, not the toll guns take in America in general.
Yes, but as anyone knows the people most vulnerable to suicides are young men. In a country where guns are so widespread and easy to obtain it must be an easy, relatively painless and attractive method of doing away with oneself. The statistic on gun suicide where others are not involved illustrates another aspect of the problem. From reports the young men who carry out school shootings are often odd characters, and perhaps attempts to identify and help them is the best way to try to deal with the problem.

Al
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Jdsk
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:53pm Yes, but these school attacks are not suicides, or if they are suicide by cop, the deaths of young innocents is an unecessary complication. Neither are they confrontations made more deadly by the presence of a gun. They are usually carefully planned.
And it would be more appropriate to use the Active Shooter statistics from the database in order to help us understand what is happening.

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Nearholmer
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Nearholmer »

They are usually carefully planned.
……. by people with access to enough guns to equip a small revolution.

Sad, angry, alienated, resentful, nihilistic, hyped-up people exist everywhere, but that don’t have ready access to guns everywhere.
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Audax67
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Audax67 »

Nearholmer wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:08pm I’ve seen plenty of “flared tempers” incidents in this country where if everyone was carrying a gun things could have got fatal. I have a feeling that shooting someone is actually less of a mental leap than punching them, which always comes with the risk of getting punched back, so that guns might both lower the threshold and raise the consequences.
Back when the USSR collapsed a flood of weapons - mostly sidearms - was released in Europe. Someone in the UK police mentioned back then that arguments that might have been finished with fists outside in the alley were becoming more liable to end with a shooting.
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reohn2
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by reohn2 »

Nearholmer wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 4:59pm
They are usually carefully planned.
……. by people with access to enough guns to equip a small revolution.

Sad, angry, alienated, resentful, nihilistic, hyped-up people exist everywhere, but that don’t have ready access to guns everywhere.
Exactly!
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Manc33
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Manc33 »

Mike Sales wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 11:16am I am wondering if there is something about US society, not just insane gun laws. Are there such a number of simmering killers in the UK, but they just can't get hold of the guns? Surely not.
It's the society in the US.

Crimes like this in the US happen 144 times more than in Canada where they have also got guns.

Jan 2009 - May 2018
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Tangled Metal
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Tangled Metal »

I might have posted this before but when my previous company had lots of dealings with YS companies I got to talk to people from many states, also Canadians from ontario and calvary way. It was the texans that worried me the most. Like the engineer i spoke to one Friday afternoon.

After concluding our business the guy got chatty. Typical Friday afternoon letting off steam conversation. He made the looking forwards to a few bottles of beer when he got home. A few bottles and shoot a few cans in his back yard. I explained that beer was OK but guns would have a load of swat taking me our pretty quick! A guy actually got caught after doing that on waste ground a few years before but fortunately not shot. Anyway the texan engineer went quiet and came back with questions. It took me 10 minutes before he could get his mind around what gun control was. He said it was messed up, over here!

That eat a graduate, postgraduate and engineer with several years experience. He was clever but gun control was alien to him.

Later on a UK colleague spent month and half out there. Came back with tales of hunting trips he got taken on. White texans with beers, boats and guns in a swamp! Rednecks but engineers in work time. One colleague said he was actually scared by the guys because they were very drunk with guns!

Or the trucks with gun racks full of guns. Of restaurants with a cloakroom for cowboy hats, spurs and guns! It is another world by some margin!

BTW I heard Switzerland had more guns per capita than USA but its not murders that its the issue but suicide by guns! No idea how true that was but less school shootings despite more guns around.
Ben@Forest
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Ben@Forest »

Tangled Metal wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 12:24am BTW I heard Switzerland had more guns per capita than USA but its not murders that its the issue but suicide by guns! No idea how true that was but less school shootings despite more guns around.
This might be skewed by the fact that Swiss military reservists are allowed to (have to?) keep their military issued rifles or pistols at home, but, AFAIK, not ammunition.

So there are two big differences, firstly just because you have a rifle at home doesn't mean you have any personal interest in it, secondly, you don't have any bullets. I should say that all this used to be the case, don't know if it's still how the Swiss military operates.
Tangled Metal
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Re: School shootings... how awful

Post by Tangled Metal »

Not just military gun ownership, there's a lot of civilian ownership too. 2 million in fact by some surveys.

The thing with Switzerland is they teach competency with guns from childhood. They also have very strong fun licensing systems where vetting is a big thing taken seriously. Unlike the UK. Plus there's a region by region log of guns owned and by who.

There's a culture to owning guns, get it right or you'll get America style issues.
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