BEVs

[Biospace]

There is no uncertainty except for those who don't want to find out.

The video did highlight an extreme use issue with Leaf battery thermal control and I anticipate that the Taxi was charged a lot and not necessarily at low rate either. I’ve read elsewhere that the end position cell(s) are cooled least and so more subject to this failure, but really don’t currently know enough to more constructively comment on that.

120k miles, as in the video for the Taxi, sounds a lot but these days I’d expect that out of any car. Forty years ago my family parted with a 2CV , it was running well and had 150k miles on the clock.

I think it's the use of majority DC charging (and probably "enthusiastic" driving) that's the issue, not the 120k miles - though I know a lot of cars don't get to 100k miles.
I keep turning up decade old numbers, but the average mileage at scrappage in the uk is reported as between 106k and 125k - that marries up with the ~13 years typical age that is more current with ~8km/year typical usage.

I'd also wager that your family spent some not inconsiderable time and effort maintaining the 2CV in good running order.

Thanks for posting that video of a Leaf's battery repair, it helps de-mystify the whole subject. As for you saying it's a fairly easy job, that applies to anything if you've the correct tools, working environment, correct frame of mind and knowledge. Does anyone know if there any BEVs which have a particularly awkward to access/remove battery?

I know a lot of people are perfectly happy to take a vehicle manfacturer's word for it that their latest model is genuinely new and improved but plenty more prefer to have a more informed choice a few years down the line, when the products themselves have done the talking.

When conventional cars were still improving enough to have children waiting for new models to be released, the difference between good (as in 2cv described by CG) and less so was often very well defined, even though marketing and general ignorance/bias tended to gloss over or hide the facts. We're only a few years in to the mass production of the BEV so I wouldn't expect quite the levels of long term reliability which the ICEv has reached, the thermally-crushed battery cells from a UK Nissan make me wonder how the cars perform in a hot climate.

Can anyone describe the what I presume is air cooling for that Leaf's battery? Is it fan driven, for example? I assume there are or will be some straighforwards modifications which battery specialists will make to prevent such overheating when fast charging, or when driving in a way which makes the battery work hard.

[al_yrpal]

Not to mention electricity at 10p a Kwhr

Al

[UpWrong]

Where are we with solid state batteries? I read something along the lines that with smaller solid state batteries the battery might not have the same capacity but the vehicle would be lighter and could be charged much more quickly. I expect good range could be had if car designers paid more attention to aerodynamics. Light weight plus good aero would make up for lower capacity batteries. Could be a game changer. Unfortunantely the car manufacturers are focussed on maximising their profits, hence the SUV-tanks.

[Jdsk]

Where are we with solid state batteries?
...

"High-quality battery technology that dramatically boosts the performance of EVs":
https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/INNOVA ... HIVE/ASSB/
"In its long-term vision, Nissan Ambition 2030, Nissan announced that, by FY2028, it aims to launch an electric vehicle (EV) with all-solid-state batteries (ASSBs) that have been developed in-house."

Jonathan

PS: I'd bet against that.

[Nearholmer]

For people who want to get deeply into all this, two relevant expos at the same time: https://batterysystemsexpo.com/

I’m going in a mix of semi-retired engineer and interested amateur modes, and when I signed-up there was no charge (monetary).

[Biospace]

I expect good range could be had if car designers paid more attention to aerodynamics. Light weight plus good aero would make up for lower capacity batteries. Could be a game changer. Unfortunantely the car manufacturers are focussed on maximising their profits, hence the SUV-tanks.

Attention to the slipperiness through air of BEVs appears extremely good, although this is compromised somewhat by their large size. Excess weight has a little less effect on a BEV's efficiency than for others because of the torque characteristics of the EM, but there is an increase in tyre emissions.

However, losing weight in a structure which has to support its own mass is always a good thing and usually a virtuous circle. 2.5 tonnes for a personal use car is beyond wasteful.

[al_yrpal]

2.5 tonnes for a personal use car is beyond wasteful

Lot of amusement for me today sat in a car park for a bit. 2.5 ton brand new blacked up Land Rover thing manages to squeeze himself into a parking place. Then tries to get out of the car and cant get through the little gap because the door wont open far enough . He drives off eventually and another one turns up.....same thing!

Size isnt restricted to fossil fuel vehicles, a mate turned up in a giant Toyota EV. His wife was moaning about having to climb up into it.

Al

[Carlton green]

Where are we with solid state batteries?
...

"High-quality battery technology that dramatically boosts the performance of EVs":
https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/INNOVA ... HIVE/ASSB/
"In its long-term vision, Nissan Ambition 2030, Nissan announced that, by FY2028, it aims to launch an electric vehicle (EV) with all-solid-state batteries (ASSBs) that have been developed in-house."

Jonathan

PS: I'd bet against that.

What makes you think that ASSB’s won’t be with us in 2028? Rather a lot can happen in five years and Nissan, for one, are throwing loads of money at it.

Whatever, my greater interest is in the nearer term and so far what I’m seeing is battery pack degradation with no well used way of replacing them. Maybe I’m wrong but it looks like otherwise perfectly good older cars are going to end up being scrapped for lack of replacement batteries … how green is that ?

[Jdsk]

Where are we with solid state batteries?
...

"High-quality battery technology that dramatically boosts the performance of EVs":
https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/INNOVA ... HIVE/ASSB/
"In its long-term vision, Nissan Ambition 2030, Nissan announced that, by FY2028, it aims to launch an electric vehicle (EV) with all-solid-state batteries (ASSBs) that have been developed in-house."

PS: I'd bet against that.

What makes you think that ASSB’s won’t be with us in 2028? Rather a lot can happen in five years and Nissan, for one, are throwing loads of money at it.

The tiny number of current (!) prototypes.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

...
Whatever, my greater interest is in the nearer term and so far what I’m seeing is battery pack degradation with no well used way of replacing them.
...

How much degradation are you "seeing"?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Carlton green]

...
Whatever, my greater interest is in the nearer term and so far what I’m seeing is battery pack degradation with no well used way of replacing them.
...

How much degradation are you "seeing"?

Thanks

Jonathan

As outlined and supported in posts not far above about 2% per year for a Leaf’s battery, less for a Tesla with its different chemistry and cooling. Teslas are exceedingly expensive whilst Leafs are just rather expensive, abilities to fund vary.

We tend to run our cars into their second decade, we buy at near new and then pretty much run them for as long as is practical. Degrading by those guides would see me with a range reduced by 30% of its original value; the showroom new range of a Leaf, even a 40KWh version (145 miles), is arguably constraining and a reduced range even more so. I’d like to see ways to regain and improve the battery life of older BEV’s.
https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1106/Nissan-Leaf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

[Jdsk]

Thankyou

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

TBH, I find the situation around replaceability or not of car battery packs at least mildly confusing

I had always imagined that traction battery packs would be a “workshop replaceable module”, and on some models of cars they very definitely are, so I’ve been surprised to learn that on some they are not, and I get the impression that makers/sellers are deliberately coy about it, perhaps because they don’t want to give the impression that batteries will need to be replaced, or because a truly modular system on a good body shell would make vehicle life sensibly infinite (on a “new heads and new handles” basis), thereby disrupting their business model.

As a BTW, my BIL has a secondhand Citroen Zoe, an early-ish model with fairly low original battery capacity, bought on a slight “wing and prayer” as regards remaining capacity (it was certificated by an independent tester, but we were never really sure whether the test company was itself reliable!). He drives to and from work, about 20 miles each way, and can charge at both ends, but even on an old battery the car has enough range that he doesn’t have to worry if the charger at one end or the other is OOU. The car is also fine for his local trips from home. On that car the battery is a replaceable module, and new ones have a far greater (double, I think) capacity than the original ones as a result of technology progress, so he intends to get a new one eventually. It’s a good illustration of how not everyone wants/needs/wants to pay for a very long range.

Plenty of petrol cars never go more than twenty miles from home - my MiL’s never does, and there is a retirement complex near us where each resident seems to own a small, fifteen year old car, which they use about twice a week very locally (I keep wondering why they don’t car share, having a fleet a quarter the size!). Something like a third of cars do less than 5000 miles/year, and there is a thriving low-mileage sector in the insurance market.

[Carlton green]

The Zoe is made by Renault (not Citroen). Numbers sold in the UK are much smaller than the Leaf and the car is much smaller too - the later being not necessarily a bad thing. IIRC the original Zoe’s had a leased battery, the payments were significant.

Necessary battery range is quite variable. I suspect that 40 miles would be sufficient for 95% plus of my journeys but not being able to do the remaining 5% would be too limiting for me. Similarly most of my journeys are by myself, but there definitely are times when not having the extra seats would make a car unfit for the needed purpose.

I’d be very interested to hear about where Zoe batteries are available from.

I believe that the Zoe is being phased out in 2024.

[Nearholmer]

I’d be very interested to hear about where Zoe batteries are available from.

Well, a quick google suggests that you can no longer get new ones as “stock items”, but breakers seem to have them, including a 52kWh one which I’m sure is even higher capacity than I was aware of when my BiL got the car; then I think the highest capacity was 40kWh.