Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

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peetee
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Location: Upon a lumpy, scarred granite massif.

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by peetee »

At a guess, on the assumption that everything looks ok to the trained eye, I’d say that on the way to the shop the boxed bike has been inverted and air has made its way to the pistons. Some people recommend bleeding these particular brakes from both ends, repeatedly passing the fluid back and forth between syringes to do a thorough job. A straightforward ‘Shimano style’ bleed is unlikely then to provide an efficient action.
Whatever the reason, as others have said you have received a product that is not fit for purpose and the supplier is in breach of contract. They are entirely responsible for repair and any resulting costs. As a practicing, independent bike mechanic I have often inspected machines supplied in such a condition and provided either a written report or repaired. In every instance the customer has been reimbursed by the bike retailer for my fees but I would strongly recommend you imply to them that this is your intention and give them the opportunity to fix it first.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
PaulBNix
Posts: 2
Joined: 29 Sep 2019, 5:25pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by PaulBNix »

I've had both SRAM Rival and Force disc brakes and I would say that if the levers actually reach the bars then they definitely need bleeding.

My current Force levers stop about at least 3 cm short of reaching the bar.

I have recently bled the front Force brake because I had to fit a new caliper.
Prior to this the front lever would come a couple of cm closer to the bar.
The distance to bar is definitely dependant on whether the brake needs to be bled.

The second issue of how well the brake works can only be determined once the lever no longer reaches the bars.

Providing the discs or pads have not been corrupted then the brakes should work pretty well from the start.
The bedding in process will make them work a bit better.

So first get the levers working properly then look at the braking power.
Nooka
Posts: 7
Joined: 27 Mar 2023, 7:12pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by Nooka »

An update, and ultimately a happy ending. Went to the sister store where they do have a bike tech and persuaded him to look at it within an hour or so - he bled the brakes, which now work fine, and gave everything else a once over.

At all stages of the process, including the actual purchase, once I got to deal with the people on the coalface, the service I got was pretty good. The specific model I wanted was in short supply, so the computer said no to transferring it to my local store for me to collect so I faced a nearly 400 mile return journey to collect it, but the very helpful woman in a call centre in South Africa agreed this was silly and persuaded the store that held the stock to do a manual transfer. And it is not the fault of the chap who had to assemble the bike that the organisation had removed anyone more qualified from the store and left him to it. It really has been an example of individual staff members doing their best despite the rubbish mess of a corporate structure that must be as frustrating for them as it is for their customers - and of course that is far from unique to this company.

Thanks again for all the advice - all I need now is for it to stop raining - don’t want my lovely new steed getting all mucky!
peetee
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Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm
Location: Upon a lumpy, scarred granite massif.

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by peetee »

Good news in the end but I hope the manager of the offending store is held to account for allowing an inexperienced member of staff to work on a customers brakes. It wouldn’t happen in a motor garage and it shouldn’t happen in a bike shop either.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks for adding the outcome.

Jonathan
rualexander
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Joined: 2 Jul 2007, 9:47pm
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Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by rualexander »

peetee wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 5:26pm Good news in the end but I hope the manager of the offending store is held to account for allowing an inexperienced member of staff to work on a customers brakes. It wouldn’t happen in a motor garage and it shouldn’t happen in a bike shop either.
The point is that the inexperienced staff member didn't work on the brakes, he just assembled the bike, which presumably just involved sticking the handlebars into the stem and the front wheel into the forks, putting some pedals and reflectors on and that's about it.
Sure he might have checked the brakes but if the company's pre delivery inspection schedule doesn't involve riding the bike then he can't be blamed for not discovering the fault.
peetee
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Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm
Location: Upon a lumpy, scarred granite massif.

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by peetee »

It’s the responsibility of the manager to ensure that every bike leaves the shop in a roadworthy condition and they should be employing people who are competent in that role.
The OP described how it was possible to pull the brake lever to the bar. This will be apparent even when the bike is stationary and a competent employee would understand that the brakes would be inadequate without needing to ride the bike.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Nooka
Posts: 7
Joined: 27 Mar 2023, 7:12pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by Nooka »

That’s sort of right, but I am quite sure my token attempt at anonymity kept absolutely no one in the dark - the shortcomings of the particular company are well known, and from their lack of any attempt to improve the situation shows they don’t give a damn. Most people in the know wouldn’t use them if they had a choice. I wouldn’t (except to buy their premium tools, which are still excellent), except I wanted a particular bike and they were the only option. Which is why my original post was about what the problem might be - the service from the company (not the individual staff) was entirely unsurprising.
simonhill
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Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by simonhill »

Given that a hill was involved in the initial ride home, I think the good outcome was that he got home in the first place.

I'm also a bit surprised that the OP didn't realise there was a problem right at the start.

I have a habit of touching my brakes as I start off at the beginning of a ride, particularly if leaving home as I encounter a very steep hill within a short distance.

All's well that ends well. Happy riding.
rogerzilla
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Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by rogerzilla »

rualexander wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 10:31am
rogerzilla wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 10:19am One of my gripes with disc brakes is that they are just too complex for the average muppet to work on, and this introduces risks and issues you don't get with rim brakes.
In what way are they more complicated?
Squeeze lever, pads move to grip discs, bike slows down.
How is that any more complicated than rim brakes?
If anything, rim brakes are more complicated than discs, as you have to fiddle about more with things like pad alignment, gaps, straddle wires, etc.
You've described how they work, not how hard they are to work on.

Bleeding often requires special and expensive kits, not supplied with the bike or brakeset, and is not easy. DOT5.1 fluid absorbs water and needs frequent, expensive changes with a fresh bottle each time. Getting them centred so they don't drag and go "woo woo" when you ride can also be rather tricky.

Ok, I'm thinking mainly of Avid hydraulics, which are absolute pants, but there are different skills involved and more scope to mess things up. Mechanical ones are less fussy - although adjusting out cable stretch is annoying frequent due to the tiny clearances - and mineral oil (Shimano) is easier to live with than DOT fluid, if you use hydraulics.
Nearholmer
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Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by Nearholmer »

Our family bike fleet now has 4x hydraulic and 1x Vee brake, none of which has proven problematic to care for.

I did find that the SRAM Rival hydraulics on my previous bike were a bit prone to “going spongy”, definitely more so than the Shimano and Tektro, but my all time hate brakes were cantilevers, where I could never get the squealing better than “loud” (it would drift to “deafening”).
Nooka
Posts: 7
Joined: 27 Mar 2023, 7:12pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by Nooka »

“I'm also a bit surprised that the OP didn't realise there was a problem right at the start.”

Thank you for sharing with me your superiority - I am humbled. It was my first time with discs - my pre reading had made much of the need to scrub in the brakes and that it can be necessary to pump the levers for a while for them to firm up - I assumed that was what I was doing - I was surprised that the braking deficit before doing these things was so stark - but I had no experience.
rualexander
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Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by rualexander »

rogerzilla wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 7:34am
rualexander wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 10:31am
rogerzilla wrote: 28 Mar 2023, 10:19am One of my gripes with disc brakes is that they are just too complex for the average muppet to work on, and this introduces risks and issues you don't get with rim brakes.
In what way are they more complicated?
Squeeze lever, pads move to grip discs, bike slows down.
How is that any more complicated than rim brakes?
If anything, rim brakes are more complicated than discs, as you have to fiddle about more with things like pad alignment, gaps, straddle wires, etc.
You've described how they work, not how hard they are to work on.

Bleeding often requires special and expensive kits, not supplied with the bike or brakeset, and is not easy. DOT5.1 fluid absorbs water and needs frequent, expensive changes with a fresh bottle each time. Getting them centred so they don't drag and go "woo woo" when you ride can also be rather tricky.

Ok, I'm thinking mainly of Avid hydraulics, which are absolute pants, but there are different skills involved and more scope to mess things up. Mechanical ones are less fussy - although adjusting out cable stretch is annoying frequent due to the tiny clearances - and mineral oil (Shimano) is easier to live with than DOT fluid, if you use hydraulics.
I was saying that they aren't any more complex than rim brakes, which is true.

They aren't any harder to work on either, once you know what you are doing, in fact I find them easier.
simonhill
Posts: 5227
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 11:28am
Location: Essex

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by simonhill »

Nooka wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 8:31am “I'm also a bit surprised that the OP didn't realise there was a problem right at the start.”

Thank you for sharing with me your superiority - I am humbled. It was my first time with discs - my pre reading had made much of the need to scrub in the brakes and that it can be necessary to pump the levers for a while for them to firm up - I assumed that was what I was doing - I was surprised that the braking deficit before doing these things was so stark - but I had no experience.
Sorry for offending you but nothing to do with my superiority. In your first post you didn't mention scrubbing off, etc, just that you could pull the brakes almost to bars and barely stop and your ride home included a medium hill.
JohnR
Posts: 248
Joined: 6 Jul 2020, 3:51pm

Re: Barely functional hydraulic discs on new bike

Post by JohnR »

One point I haven't seen mentioned is that spongy hydraulic brakes can be temporarily improved by pumping them. I learnt this when I first got a car at a time when vehicles required a lot more maintenance (eg change the engine oil every 3,000 miles) than is now the case and the same need for more frequent attention applied to the brakes.

I've been putting off bleeding my Clarks Clout 1 hydraulics which I put on the bike about 6 months ago (straight out of the box, pre-assembled with the hoses and fluid) because I'm waiting for nicer weather as I also need to shorten the plumbing. I don't have the problem of the levers running out of travel but I have noticed that if I squeeze, release and squeeze again then the movement of the levers on the second squeeze is much reduced.
Usually riding a Rohloff-equipped Spa Cycles Elan Ti
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