Need a new tourer -change of drive train

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aflook
Posts: 188
Joined: 22 Nov 2011, 3:21pm
Location: Sheffield

Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by aflook »

Hello everyone
Again, I am calling on your collective wisdom.
I had an accident in Germany and my bike (and, less terminally, my shoulder) was wrecked. I had a Condor Heritage Disc with a 3x9 Shimergo set up with BB7 brakes. Now I have to replace the bike (most of it covered by insurance) but Condor don't seem to have any frames available in my size, so I'm looking elsewhere. I spent so much time faffing with the indexing adjustment and the brake cable path that I thought I might add a bit extra and get a fully built bike (not had one since a 1987 Condor Cadet). I built the Condor with my intended riding in mind: the rougher roads and paths of Italy and Spain with the odd bit of rough stuff. The gearing suited me fine: 24-36-48, 11-34. This gave me a bottom gear of about 19 inches with 35c tyres.
So I'm thinking of:
Spa D'Tour GRX 600 2x11build - the best value option
Fairlaight Aran 600 or 800 build - great attention to detail like dynamo cable routing
Staniforth Kibo 600 build - the most expensive option but with a custom frame
Using a XT 11-42 cassette with extender
I understand that the STI levers are now more comfotable
9 speed kit is increasingly difficult to find
Hydros are getting more reliable ( I would go for Hope calipers)
Any thoughts, you wonderful people?
BTW I'll bite the bullet on colour if I need to.
Many thanks
Adrian
JohnR
Posts: 248
Joined: 6 Jul 2020, 3:51pm

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by JohnR »

If you aren't planning to be heavily loaded then the Spa Elan may be worth a look https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m1b0s223p45 ... le-Disc%29 .
Usually riding a Rohloff-equipped Spa Cycles Elan Ti
aflook
Posts: 188
Joined: 22 Nov 2011, 3:21pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by aflook »

Yes I like the look of the Elan, but I am planning on being fully loaded.
mattsccm
Posts: 5101
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by mattsccm »

There are many so called "gravel" bikes out there that fit the bill although lots only have a 1x setup. All you would need to do is swap the Shimano/SRAM calipers for the matching Hope ones. I would also look for a MTB double chainset. Something like a 28/42 setup gives nice low rings and, as I discovered not long back whe actually calculating, virtually the same top gear as my old 52/14 that I used as a youngster in the early '80s. All without a huge cassette and dangling great mech. A thought.
PH
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Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by PH »

If you liked your Heritage, I'd be comparing geometry charts and hoping for a test ride of the options. I'm not usually a huge fan of test rides, other than for fun, but if you're looking for something that feels familiar they serve the purpose. Was there anything you'd have liked to be different?
Another one for your list that I think is quite close to the Heritage is the Sonder Santiago, I had one of the previous versions and liked it apart from not having the tyre clearance I was hoping for, the current version seems to have increased it. Sonder were offering day hire to test a bike with the fee refundable on purchase, you'll have to check they still do, is so their Hathersage shop is easy to get to from Sheffield.
https://alpkit.com/collections/sonder-santiago

Spa Cycles have a good reputation for offering long test rides. Also fairly easy to get to from Sheffield. I don't know which model would best suit you.
All you suggestions seem to be good bikes, but the Kibo looks to be a different style of bike from the other two and the Heritage, maybe their Skylander would be a better replacement. If anything you're spoilt for choice, I don't think there's been a better time to be looking for this sort of bike. I like hydraulic brakes, I've never used Hope, but the Shimano ones I've had, even the cheapest, have been great. I'm not sure that 9 speed is getting hard to find, the consumables, cassettes and chains are readily available, though going that route would need you to re-think the brakes.
Have fun choosing.
st599_uk
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by st599_uk »

If you can get to Harrogate, Spa will have a long discussion about what you want to use the bike for, and lend you a test bike for the afternoon.

They also customise the build to match what you want/need.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
aflook
Posts: 188
Joined: 22 Nov 2011, 3:21pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by aflook »

Thanks all for your input.

Yes, I've used Spa before for wheel builds and all sorts. A trip might well be in order once I can ride again. I had two pairs of Sonder pedals fail very quickly so I've been put off them.

I suppose that part of my question is about the components. Especially brakes. I liked disc brakes but had mechanical ones. I would like the incresed stopping power and auto-adjustment of hydros, but I'm not sure about the reliabilty. Of course anything might fail and I have no plans to tour outside Europe - but what are the most likely reasons for hydro disc brake failure? Caliper leaks seem to be the most mentioned so I would go for Hope who seem more reliable than Shimano. But what of hose junctions? I enjoy the hand positions offed by cross-top levers and Shimano offer an hydfraulic set, but would this significantly increase the risk of joint failure? Would I end up carrying bleed kits and other spares? And how difficult is it to install and service hydros (to prevent malfunction)?

And then agiain it's a change of drive train. Has anyone experience of the GRX 2x11 for touring? I liked the Campag lever shapes but not the length of pull, how do they compare to the latest offering from Shimano? Are the 800 series very differnt to the 600 or 105?

Not to mention frame geometry which try as I might I can never get my head round. The Faran seems to have much shorter chain stay length so could increase heel strike unless the panniers are moved back, but would this be mitigated by the steeper seat tube angle?

As ever, all your thoughts are most welcome.

Adrian
PH
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Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by PH »

aflook wrote: 31 May 2023, 10:39am I would like the incresed stopping power and auto-adjustment of hydros, but I'm not sure about the reliabilty. Of course anything might fail and I have no plans to tour outside Europe - but what are the most likely reasons for hydro disc brake failure? Caliper leaks seem to be the most mentioned so I would go for Hope who seem more reliable than Shimano.
Adrian
The most common hydraulic failure is in the spelling.
I haven't seen any evidence that Shimano are more prone to leaks than any others. The joints are not a leak point unless they're badly fitted in the first place, this isn't new technology. The pistons may leak if they're neglected, the seal has to be able to move to account for wear, it isn't a hard task. Other than that, the most frequent failures I've heard of are caused by damage, considering anything can be damaged (I tore a canti boss off a fork in an accident) it isn't something I worry about. The other way neglect causes problems is to not notice the pads wearing out, I'm ashamed to admit I've been guilty of this, because they self adjust it isn't so easy to feel the wear as it is with mechanicals, you just need to routinely check them, very simple once it becomes habit. The big difference between calipers is whether you go for mineral oil or DOT, I prefer the non corrosive former, though there are arguments both ways.
slowster
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Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by slowster »

The Fairlight Faran looks like a very simiilar bike to the steel Spa Elan with a steel fork. If you rule out the Elan as being less suited to fully loaded touring, I would expect the same considerations to apply to the Faran, e.g. the Faran's chainstays are even shorter than the Elan's - 430mm vs. 440mm. The D'Tour is 455mm or more dependending on frame size.

If a fork has internal dynamo cable routing, the front light cannot be removed if it uses a crimped connector or similar, unless the connector is removed/cut off. Not a problem with Shimano or SP dynamo hubs which use separable plastic connector blocks, but potentially an issue with a Son hub. The cable of Son's Edelux 2 lights with a factory fitted co-axial connector cannot be used with internal fork routing (as opposed to an Edelux 2 to which a crimped connector is fitted after routing the cable through the fork).

Would you be likely to want to use wider tyres than 35mm, and if so how wide? Even if you stick with 35mm tyres, a frame/fork with clearance for wider tyres might make the difference between whether a damaged wheel that is slightly out of true can or cannot still be ridden.
rareposter
Posts: 1993
Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by rareposter »

+1 for everything that PH said. ^^

Hydraulic disc brakes are long-established tech, they've been standard on MTBs for probably 20+ years now where they're subject to far more wear and tear / potential crash damage / mud / water than even the most hardcore tourer could put them through. Plus internal hose routing avoids any issues with snagging luggage etc against them and the calipers are pretty well tucked away inside the rear triangle and against the forks.

I've never used GRX for "touring" but I've got it on my gravel bike and it's been faultless. GRX double uses a smaller cassette (11-32 or 11-34) because of the double chainring whereas 1x systems use a wider range cassette.

Fairlight bikes get great reviews - Cyclist Magazine reviewed the Strael recently and really rated it.
st599_uk
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by st599_uk »

aflook wrote: 31 May 2023, 10:39am Thanks all for your input.

Yes, I've used Spa before for wheel builds and all sorts. A trip might well be in order once I can ride again. I had two pairs of Sonder pedals fail very quickly so I've been put off them.

I suppose that part of my question is about the components. Especially brakes. I liked disc brakes but had mechanical ones. I would like the incresed stopping power and auto-adjustment of hydros, but I'm not sure about the reliabilty. Of course anything might fail and I have no plans to tour outside Europe - but what are the most likely reasons for hydro disc brake failure? Caliper leaks seem to be the most mentioned so I would go for Hope who seem more reliable than Shimano. But what of hose junctions? I enjoy the hand positions offed by cross-top levers and Shimano offer an hydfraulic set, but would this significantly increase the risk of joint failure? Would I end up carrying bleed kits and other spares? And how difficult is it to install and service hydros (to prevent malfunction)?

And then agiain it's a change of drive train. Has anyone experience of the GRX 2x11 for touring? I liked the Campag lever shapes but not the length of pull, how do they compare to the latest offering from Shimano? Are the 800 series very differnt to the 600 or 105?

Not to mention frame geometry which try as I might I can never get my head round. The Faran seems to have much shorter chain stay length so could increase heel strike unless the panniers are moved back, but would this be mitigated by the steeper seat tube angle?

As ever, all your thoughts are most welcome.

Adrian
Have you looked at the TRP Hy/Rd brakes, mechanical cables actuating a hydraulic cylinder? https://road.cc/content/review/85499-tr ... isc-brakes

When I bought my Elan (I'd actually gone in for a Wayfarer, but was talked round to the Elan as it better fitted my needs), the base model came with 105 Crankset, that I changed out for Spa's own brand (it was aesthetically much nicer), I changed the cassette to an 11-40, got slightly different bars, asked for specific coloured parts. All no problem. Only issue was that the tyres I wanted were unavailable due to the pandemic.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
aflook
Posts: 188
Joined: 22 Nov 2011, 3:21pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by aflook »

Have you looked at the TRP Hy/Rd brakes, mechanical cables actuating a hydraulic cylinder? https://road.cc/content/review/85499-tr ... isc-brakes

I tried the Spyres and wasn't that impressed - a miss-match for my Ergos. Not sure that the Hy/Rd has much advantage over full hydrawlics (to demonstrate the main failing of hydraulic brakes) and I read on this forum somewhere that they might be prone to overheating.

When I bought my Elan (I'd actually gone in for a Wayfarer, but was talked round to the Elan as it better fitted my needs), the base model came with 105 Crankset, that I changed out for Spa's own brand (it was aesthetically much nicer), I changed the cassette to an 11-40, got slightly different bars, asked for specific coloured parts. All no problem. Only issue was that the tyres I wanted were unavailable due to the pandemic.
[/quote]

Yes I looked at the Elan a while back but decided that for full-on pannier touring the wayfarer or DTour would suit me better.
rareposter wrote: 31 May 2023, 11:03am +1 for everything that PH said. ^^

Hydraulic disc brakes are long-established tech, they've been standard on MTBs for probably 20+ years now where they're subject to far more wear and tear / potential crash damage / mud / water than even the most hardcore tourer could put them through. Plus internal hose routing avoids any issues with snagging luggage etc against them and the calipers are pretty well tucked away inside the rear triangle and against the forks.

That's a particularly usefuel insight, thank you. Puts my concerns to one side.
slowster wrote: 31 May 2023, 11:02am The Fairlight Faran looks like a very simiilar bike to the steel Spa Elan with a steel fork. If you rule out the Elan as being less suited to fully loaded touring, I would expect the same considerations to apply to the Faran, e.g. the Faran's chainstays are even shorter than the Elan's - 430mm vs. 440mm. The D'Tour is 455mm or more dependending on frame size.

If a fork has internal dynamo cable routing, the front light cannot be removed if it uses a crimped connector or similar, unless the connector is removed/cut off. Not a problem with Shimano or SP dynamo hubs which use separable plastic connector blocks, but potentially an issue with a Son hub. The cable of Son's Edelux 2 lights with a factory fitted co-axial connector cannot be used with internal fork routing (as opposed to an Edelux 2 to which a crimped connector is fitted after routing the cable through the fork).

Would you be likely to want to use wider tyres than 35mm, and if so how wide? Even if you stick with 35mm tyres, a frame/fork with clearance for wider tyres might make the difference between whether a damaged wheel that is slightly out of true can or cannot still be ridden.
Yes I'm coming to the conclusion that the Faran will not fit the bill. Good points about the dynamo cable routing. It just looked so neat. Not likely to go much beyond 35mm tyres - certainly not above 40mm.

Thanks again everyone - you're clearing my head!
Adrian
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by slowster »

You mention about STIs now being more comfortable. The latest hydraulic STI levers are reportedly less bulky than the initial versions, but I think they are still quite bulky (and less ergonomically suited for many, especially those with smaller hands) compared to the non-hydraulic STIs, and especially so compared to the older 'washing line' STIs, which are probably the most similar in bulk to the Campagnolo Ergolevers you are used to.

If STIs did not suit you, an alternative might be Gevenalle lever/shifters. I **think** the cable version of these uses the older pattern Tektro lever which is the same shape as second generation Campag Ergolevers. Cane Creek's SCR 5 levers were the same lever with a fancier hood. There is also a hydraulic version which uses the TRP Hylex brake, which uses mineral oil like Shimano (I don't know about compatibility between TRP, Shimano and Hope mineral oil calipers). Because it is solely a brake lever, I think the Hylex lever should have good ergonomics/be much less bulky than STIs.

The cable Gevenalle levers could be paired with standard road pull calipers, e.g. BB7 or maybe Paul Component Klamper calipers if you wanted to spend more for a better brake (expensive, but should last a lifetime).

The shifters on the Gevenalle levers are Microshift, and available for most speeds and also for MTB rear derailleurs. Shimano MTB 10 and 11 speed rear derailleurs and shifters use a longer cable pull than the road derailleurs/shifters. That has the advantage of making the indexing less sensitive, e.g. to cable stretch.

https://www.gevenalle.com/shifters/

https://www.bikemonger.co.uk/gevenalle-326-c.asp

https://www.paulcomp.com/product-catego ... ts/brakes/
aflook
Posts: 188
Joined: 22 Nov 2011, 3:21pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by aflook »

Just to thank everyone again and conclude the thread. All your input was most welcome and helpful, as ever. I was reassured and have gone down the hydraulic route, ordering a Skyelander from Stanforth bikes. Will post pics on the pictures of your bikes thread when I pick it up in September, by which time I’m hoping to be riding again.
Happy cycling everyone
Adrian
markjohnobrien
Posts: 1037
Joined: 4 Oct 2007, 8:15pm

Re: Need a new tourer -change of drive train

Post by markjohnobrien »

slowster wrote: 31 May 2023, 1:21pm You mention about STIs now being more comfortable. The latest hydraulic STI levers are reportedly less bulky than the initial versions, but I think they are still quite bulky (and less ergonomically suited for many, especially those with smaller hands) compared to the non-hydraulic STIs, and especially so compared to the older 'washing line' STIs, which are probably the most similar in bulk to the Campagnolo Ergolevers you are used to.

If STIs did not suit you, an alternative might be Gevenalle lever/shifters. I **think** the cable version of these uses the older pattern Tektro lever which is the same shape as second generation Campag Ergolevers. Cane Creek's SCR 5 levers were the same lever with a fancier hood. There is also a hydraulic version which uses the TRP Hylex brake, which uses mineral oil like Shimano (I don't know about compatibility between TRP, Shimano and Hope mineral oil calipers). Because it is solely a brake lever, I think the Hylex lever should have good ergonomics/be much less bulky than STIs.

The cable Gevenalle levers could be paired with standard road pull calipers, e.g. BB7 or maybe Paul Component Klamper calipers if you wanted to spend more for a better brake (expensive, but should last a lifetime).

The shifters on the Gevenalle levers are Microshift, and available for most speeds and also for MTB rear derailleurs. Shimano MTB 10 and 11 speed rear derailleurs and shifters use a longer cable pull than the road derailleurs/shifters. That has the advantage of making the indexing less sensitive, e.g. to cable stretch.

https://www.gevenalle.com/shifters/

https://www.bikemonger.co.uk/gevenalle-326-c.asp

https://www.paulcomp.com/product-catego ... ts/brakes/
And TRP Hylex are great if you want to want to use bar end shifters: convenience of non indexed gears with full hydraulic brakes - great combination.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
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