Ely riot, 2023

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Psamathe
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Psamathe »

mattheus wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:46am
Psamathe wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:34am
Some truly gymnastic assumptions there!
Gosh, what a cunning debate tactic, well-played!

(Any update on the evidence of actual lies told? I can wait, but it's been a week now ... )
Maybe learn to use Google yourself because I've already spent too much time Googling for you and you just reject everything in any links that don't agree with your own viewpoint.

Ian
slowster
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by slowster »

I have just removed several posts containing a sarcastic remark at the expense of the families of the two teenagers.

The deaths of the teenagers is an awful loss for their families. Consider carefully what you say on this thread, and how you say it.
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Carlton green wrote: 29 May 2023, 9:28pm What I suggested was truth and an awareness of common understanding. So factual presentation of what police activity presence there might have been in Ely as part of normal patrols would have been good. That the force would be questioning all officers that had been in the area would have been good too. As it happens folk got hold of the wrong end of the stick, how the youths actually ended up dead isn’t clear to me, perhaps the truth will eventually emerge.
factual presentation of what police activity presence there might have been in Ely as part of normal patrols would have been good.
That would be a huge amount of information, and that "might" would complicate matters. Is that really feasible for a media release while a riot is going on?

That the force would be questioning all officers that had been in the area would have been good too.

Is that a feasible commitment? ALL officers? Are you now recommending promises they couldn't keep?

It was suggested earlier (by yourself IIRC?) that the police statement poured petrol on the fire. I don't see any joined-up logic as to how that is the case. The situation is more likely down to this:
pwa wrote: 30 May 2023, 6:43am I have also heard that the families did not ask for or condone the riot that followed, and that some of the rioters came from other areas, probably through a liking for riots rather than anger at what had happened. It was estimated that about 150 people rioted. The population of the Ely estate is 15 000, so even if all the rioters had been locals, most folk were not involved and were probably just guarding their homes.
Do you think a detailed listing of all the police patrol activities during the night - including many statuses yet-to-be collated - would have affected that?
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Psamathe wrote: 30 May 2023, 11:20am
Maybe learn to use Google yourself because I've already spent too much time Googling for you and you just reject everything in any links that don't agree with your own viewpoint.

Ian
I've done due diligence. No-one is quoting any exact wording (not even Mod Slowster's excellent research). So how can you accuse them of lying? Is anyone seriously disputing that the teenagers were not being pursued when they crashed? Is there evidence of any police not following the very strict procedures* on following or pursuing road-users?

You have already stated your prejudicial view about police lies, so it's reasonable to challenge your latest accusations. It's a strong accusation, you should try to back it up.


*Procedures which - as covered by member Ossie - have been considerably improved/beefed-up following some high profile deaths in recent decades.
reohn2
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by reohn2 »

Nearholmer wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:34am Here’s a diagram that might help.

D4F63AE9-6A9D-45B4-93E0-7C8E17AAE50D.jpeg

Riots often happen in this country because a particular thing, usually something that appears to those on the ground to involve “oppressive authority”, acts as a spark in a tinder-box, and to mix metaphors, the lid temporarily blows off.

As someone else said up-thread: we are no longer tough on the causes of crime. We’re back in the loop of stupidity that the diagram attempts to highlight.
Spot on!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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ossie
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by ossie »

Psamathe wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:39am
ossie wrote: 29 May 2023, 8:25pm ...
The only guaranteed 'police officers' in this whole situation may well have been the poor sods behind the shields getting bricks thrown at them by Cardiffs finest.
So it doesn't concern you that the pursuing van with Police logos down the side, etc. was not driven by Police Officers? (as you tell us now, with all your experience that the only Police Officers involved where those attending the subsequent riot).

My default assumption would be to question your assertion.

Ian
I'm not really telling anyone anything hence I said 'may well have been'. It's simply a reflection of modern day policing. Police community support officers (PCSO's ) quite often drive marked Police vehicles with all of the logos, blue lights and sirens. They're not Police officers. They're not trained or authorised to respond to incidents or get involved in a pursuit so can't use blue lights unless protecting a scene of an accident or similar.

Likewise some police officers aren't trained to pursue vehicles or respond to incidents using blue lights and sirens until they've done the relevant courses.

However there's nothing to stop an untrained Police officer following a vehicle, cyclist , motorcyclist within reason as long as they don't engage in a pursuit which is a very fine line. From the limited video I'd suggest this was probably a short pursuit, in which case the driver should be trained, blue lights should have been illuminated and it should have been called into the control room. If it was called in a log would have been created and South Wales Police would never have denied involvement in the manner they did.

At the same time we can ask why the driver of the van didn't report his involvement when it became obvious a fatal accident occurred around the corner. They would have been made aware, within minutes, of the fatalities and they probably attended the scene itself. The focus of the IOPC will be on the van driver and the points above.
Last edited by ossie on 30 May 2023, 9:28pm, edited 2 times in total.
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squeaker
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by squeaker »

simonineaston wrote: 30 May 2023, 9:38am Quick straw pole: how many of us cycle uk forum readers posses a balaclava? You do? Supplimentary - could you readily put your hand on it, one pleasant May evening?
Yes, it's in my winter sailing kit somewhere, but as it's bright yellow I'm not sure if it's de rigueur :roll:
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UpWrong
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by UpWrong »

I have one too but it's green and woolly, too hot to wear in May.
harriedgary
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by harriedgary »

me thinks this case, and other cases like the sad death of a cyclist on a footpath which resulted in an innocent pedestrian being imprisoned, all points to a legal system which contrary to our proud claims, isn't the best in the world, but actually creaking to a pariah state hell hole ignominious spluttering end.

Clearly the police especially that local force, should have immediately called a crisis meeting and decided how to handle this almighty foul up. 2 youngster died. Yes by their own hand, but none the less, with police involvement. It's now well accepted that human brain doesn't evolve until around 25 years old, especially the male human brain. These two were kids so could be expected to make errors of judgement.

However, they were breaking the law by riding that vehicle. They were breaking the law by riding 2 up. They were breaking the law by failing to stop for the police - assuming the police really were following them. That bit is assumed, but until the video from the police van is released, we can't know for certain. Coincidence do happen, really weird ones, I'm a fan of them personally, but that's a different novella.

Then there is the culpability of the person who gave the electric vehicle to the boys. One cannot expect a section of community to obey some higher standard of behaviour, while actively riding roughshod over common standards yourself. I don't accept alternatives to this: Everyone knows that electric bikes over a certain weight, or speed, or power etc are not legal to use on the public highway. This country wisely does not allow for ignorance of the law as a defence in law. I'd prosecute whoever it was who supplied the vehicle because it's about time the loophole of "off road private land use" was removed.

How much longer will police and government stand by and do zilch until larger numbers of pedestrians (and indeed the users themselves) are killed by the illegal use of electric vehicles like this one. On this forum absolutely everyone of us knows that public highway legal electric bikes are limited to 16mph (OK actually 15.5 for some reason) We know that whether we have one or not. It is the duty of someone owning or using one to know that. It is the duty of any retailer selling such bikes to make sure that that law is clear to the buyer.

Clearly bad retailers like amazon gitspace and ebayfleaspace have no interest in laws of the jurisdictions to which they sell to. Then that's a government failure to police on a national level these retailers. It's funny how easily certain things can be policed by the cyber patrols, but a big illegal electric bike popping through the letter box, somehow the police/customs etc can't quite police that. How strange...

And even if the police were comprehensively culpable of causing those two youngster's deaths, the small matter of large scale criminality remains. Numbers of people chose to riot. They chose to damage, burn and destroy other people's property. They chose to attack other police. These criminals made choices, not on the spur of the moment, but calculated ongoing decision making. That's the truth behind most so called spontaneous riots. There are always bad actors behind them who taking some upset or grievance, creates a large scale civil unrest situation for their own purposes, whether for entertainment because they are psychopaths enjoying chaos and destruction, or criminals seeking distractions from other criminality that can be carried out with less police to interfere with.

But the bottom line is that every single person who took part in that riot was disrespecting the loss of life. By rioting you are defacto asserting the right to ignore the law, thereby making anyone connected, i.e the two boys, also criminals too. How is it respectful to tarnish the memory of two boys with such serious criminality? If you don't understand that argument, then you too probably are of the ilk that would under the right conditions, i.e a sense of freedom, an expectation of avoiding penalty, to commit crime for your own benefit.

Oh well. whistle. gale.

I thought it was interesting how the same week that poor Auriol Grey had her tough sentence of 3 years for accidental death confirmed by appeal court, another reckless villain of the scum variety, Dorothy Denny, who intentionally set out to break the law without regard for anyone else's safety or life, got away with no prison time at all for a serious, protracted and egregious case of drunken driving.

In this country, justice really is about who you know. Ms Grey with little support in life and many disadvantages goes about her lawful business and gets a sentence out of all proportion to her actual culpability, whereas a driver who was 100% culpable at every step, from deciding to drink, to deciding to drive, to crashing head onto an innocent road user who by the grace of God survived, Mrs Denny walks out of court. Many others would have been locked up for that level of offending.
Interesting how the press photo of her leaving court doesn't show if one trouser leg is rolled up higher than the other...
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Jdsk
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

harriedgary wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 1:32pm ...
I thought it was interesting how the same week that poor Auriol Grey had her tough sentence of 3 years for accidental death confirmed by appeal court...
That's not what happened. The application for appeal was refused.

Jonathan
harriedgary
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by harriedgary »

stop being pedantic
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simonineaston
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by simonineaston »

How much longer will police and government stand by and do zilch until larger numbers of pedestrians (and indeed the users themselves) are killed by the illegal use of electric vehicles like this one.
That's the $64 Q. While incidents remain at low levels, it's likely to be a can that's kicked down the road for the foreseeable. (other cliches are available...) The difficulties will outweigh the benefits. For example, bringing about legislation that restricts use of battery powered vehicles might seem to go against perceived "green" benefits. Politicians are likely to bottle it, with respect to coming down on the side of restriction, unless accident numbers go up sharply.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 1:39pm
harriedgary wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 1:32pm ...
I thought it was interesting how the same week that poor Auriol Grey had her tough sentence of 3 years for accidental death confirmed by appeal court...
That's not what happened. The application for appeal was refused.

Jonathan
He's right - you are being pedantic. As well as continuing a pointless thread diversion (the Grey case is covered in enormous detail in another thread - as well as being easily google-able, of course :P )
Jdsk
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by Jdsk »

If you're going to discuss the operation of the legal system it's generally a good idea to get the facts right.

If you want to discuss the appropriateness of the Grey case to this thread then I suggest addressing your comments to the poster who introduced it.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Ely riot, 2023

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 2:23pm If you're going to discuss the operation of the legal system it's generally a good idea to get the facts right.

If you want to discuss the appropriateness of the Grey case to this thread then I suggest addressing your comments to the poster who introduced it.

Jonathan
But you should know better - it's not like you haven't been around this place for a while! It takes two to tango, and you joined the dance with enthusiasm. Have fun!
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