Europe: Flying or not?

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ChrisF
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Europe: Flying or not?

Post by ChrisF »

I know there have been several threads on this subject but I'd like to approach it from a slightly different (maybe?) angle.

I was thinking about doing a cycle-camping tour in Sweden this summer, so I looked for previous threads on Sweden and found this oneviewtopic.php?t=153748&hilit=sweden . The responses were more about flying vs. trains/ferry than about Sweden itself. There seems to be plenty of us cyclists who won't fly because of environmental concerns. Anyway, as a result of this thread I looked into the 'overland' route: according to Seat61, I could get from London to Copenhagen (which is a short hop to Sweden) in not much more than 24 hours, with a hotel stopover in Brussels. But that's without a bike. I can't take a bike on Eurostar, and to go on German ICE trains a bike needs to be boxed. Long story short, to get from Cornwall to Copenhagen by rail / ferry I think would take at least 3 days, two overnight stops and eight changes. Cost would be getting on for £300 each way (including hotel costs and rail/ station food etc).

This summer I can fly from Newquay to Copenagen in a couple of hours for £140 one way. Yes, it's a much bigger carbon footprint (but maybe not quite such a difference when you factor in the footprint of hotels and on-the-go food). But I'd like to pose a question to those of you who don't fly, but would do if it were OK environmentally. Do you really believe that a few cyclists refusing to fly will make any tangible difference to the way the climate emergency turns out?

Going back to my costings above, I propose donating the £150 or so saved by flying (rather than going overland) to an environmental charity. If I choose the right charit(ies), I believe they can have far more effect on climate change than would be the case with me refusing to fly. I have done so a few times in the past, giving 50% of a plane ticket price to Greenpeace and the Woodland Trust.

The main question is, which charities? Or, is my theory horribly flawed in some way?
Chris F, Cornwall
Jdsk
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Jdsk »

ChrisF wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:27pm ...
Do you really believe that a few cyclists refusing to fly will make any tangible difference to the way the climate emergency turns out?
...
No, but a whole lot of different people doing a whole range of things differently will. And it would be possible to look at those as each being in a particular small category doing a particular small thing.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Jdsk »

ChrisF wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:27pmGoing back to my costings above, I propose donating the £150 or so saved by flying (rather than going overland) to an environmental charity. If I choose the right charit(ies), I believe they can have far more effect on climate change than would be the case with me refusing to fly. I have done so a few times in the past, giving 50% of a plane ticket price to Greenpeace and the Woodland Trust.

The main question is, which charities?
...
Yes, if you're going to fly then offsetting should help.

Unfortunately there've been a few instances recently of it not actually happening in practice.

I'd also like to know which charities etc are most cost-effective, so thanks for raising this.

Jonathan
pwa
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by pwa »

Chris, I haven't flown for about twenty years, and no, I don't think my own sacrifice makes much difference. Just as my not driving a Lamborghini doesn't make much difference. Nothing I do or don't do, as an individual, makes much difference. Is that a reason not to manage my own actions? That is a question for you to answer.

Do you remember, a few years back, it was fashionable to look at one's own lifestyle and estimate how many Planet Earths we would need if everyone on the planet had that same lifestyle? And flying, just once a year, tended to tip a person into needing more than one planet. It was that sort of thinking that provoked me into giving up flying. Okay, when flying was the privilege of the more affluent minority of the world's population we could get away with it, but now that huge populations like those of China and India are starting to access the same lifestyle we have been enjoying, we can't afford to carry on that way.

And of course, not flying is a lot dearer than flying. If you continue to want to go to destinations not easily reached by land and sea. So if you really mean it, giving up flying means giving up going to some places. But if you don't give it up, it makes the tiny gestures such as changing lightbulbs look a bit silly.
mattheus
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

pwa wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:54pm Do you remember, a few years back, it was fashionable to look at one's own lifestyle and estimate how many Planet Earths we would need if everyone on the planet had that same lifestyle? And flying, just once a year, tended to tip a person into needing more than one planet. It was that sort of thinking that provoked me into giving up flying.
Excellent viewpoint.

(and all the "offsetting" will not make much difference to such calculations, sadly ... )
PH
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by PH »

ChrisF wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:27pm But I'd like to pose a question to those of you who don't fly, but would do if it were OK environmentally. Do you really believe that a few cyclists refusing to fly will make any tangible difference to the way the climate emergency turns out?
I'm not optimistic anything we do will make a difference. The question is how much you're prepared to be a part of that and it's something we can only answer for ourselves. For me - I'd look at alternative methods of travel, if there weren't any I'd look at alternative destinations I might choose instead, If it was somewhere I still wanted to go I'd look at the least damaging flight (That probably means direct route from a major airport). Then I'd go enjoy the trip.
I don't do the offsetting thing, if I did I'd offset with lifestyle rather than cash.
mattheus
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

Related anecdata:

A cycling friend has a high-powered job in biofuels, employed by a US firm. He couldn't really take the job and avoid numerous annual flights.

So he's cut out almost all his meat consumption (a big sacrifice for him!). I don't know exactly how the numbers stack up, but I give him credit for at least trying to do the right thing.
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TrevA
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by TrevA »

A bit off-topic, but I used to work for Natural England. We were not allowed to fly at all as part of our jobs. If you needed to fly, you had to seek the permission of the chief executive to do so. This contrasted with our sister organisation, the Rural Payments Agency, whose staff would regularly fly from Exeter to Newcastle for work. We were encouraged to use the train to attend meetings. This was mostly OK, but some offices were a pain to get to by train. I used to travel to Worcester quite regularly, this was 1 hr 45 mins in the car, but 3.5 hours on the train. Again, if you wanted to drive, you had to seek permission from your director.

I went from doing 5000 annual work miles in the car to zero almost overnight when this policy came in. We were encouraged to cycle too, but this was impractical most of the time, unless combined with a train journey. I would often use the office Brompton to complete a journey, if there was a 2-10 miles ride at the other end to the office. A few times, I cycled all the way to conference venues. Once from Nottingham to Market Bosworth, about 40 miles each way, and another time from Nottingham to Cheltenham, about 90 miles each way, luckily with a 2 day break between outward and homeward journeys. Another time, from Nottingham to Stafford, about 70 miles each way. You could claim mileage at 20p per mile for cycle journeys.
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MrsHJ
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by MrsHJ »

I’d probably fly that route too (I’m well aware of the extra faff getting to a lot of places from the south west). I’m trying to limit myself to one return flight a year- this year it might be none.

Offsetting is an option and I like your donations approach too. I actually quite like doing the train and accepting a bit more time if it’s easy and relaxing- 8 changes isn’t. However I do hope things are improving with various new sleeper services so it may be watch this space.
ChrisF
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by ChrisF »

Thank you, all, for your thoughts so far.
pwa wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 3:54pm .....
Do you remember, a few years back, it was fashionable to look at one's own lifestyle and estimate how many Planet Earths we would need if everyone on the planet had that same lifestyle? And flying, just once a year, tended to tip a person into needing more than one planet.
......
Yes, I remember that. And I would feel much more relaxed about taking a (return) flight once a year, if I knew that was the maximum that any one could take, and also assuming that quite a a few of those on the planet won't ever want or need to fly anyway. But there are plenty of people who fly many times a year. If there could somehow be some sort of legislation to prevent this, the contribution of aviation to climate change would be much reduced. The only way of acheiving this type of change is through lobbying (or direct action) from environmental groups, which is why I am proposing supporting them. Not 'carbon offsetting' in the normal sense at all (a very dubious practice) but helping to finance those groups who have the infrastructure and knowhow to make themselves heard.
Chris F, Cornwall
PH
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by PH »

ChrisF wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 9:10pm And I would feel much more relaxed about taking a (return) flight once a year, if I knew that was the maximum that any one could take, and also assuming that quite a a few of those on the planet won't ever want or need to fly anyway. But there are plenty of people who fly many times a year. If there could somehow be some sort of legislation to prevent this, the contribution of aviation to climate change would be much reduced.
I read some analysis, possibly in George Monbiot's book, which demonstrated there was no feasible business model that supported infrequent flights, it's a bit all or nothing. Once a year holiday are only possible thanks to the frequent flyers! Cost of aircraft and infrastructure is such that it needs the volume to support it or it becomes such a luxury item that only the extremely wealthy can afford it.
Galactic
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Galactic »

First of all, the technology we have, and that we reasonably expect to have soon (ever?), cannot deliver carbon-neutral flights. Biofuels, efuels, hydrogen, batteries in the context of planes will be almost as destructive to the planet as kerosine :(

Which leaves us with your question of what to do when we want to get to places that are a real pain to get to without flying? What if we reframe that question to: What if we don't go to the place we can't easily get to without flying, even though we'd really like to? :?:

At the end of the day, the decision on so many of our actions boil down to us turning a blind eye to the environmental and social consequences of what we want to do. Incomprehensible animal suffering because we want to eat meat/drink milk, doubling our CO2e emissions because we want to go somewhere (northern Norway in my case), human slavery and appalling work conditions because we want batteries for our (coltan containing) phones/cars/lawn mowers and cheap clothes etc etc ad nauseam.

That's why I shan't be going to northern Norway until I can muster enough time to cycle there, at least from Germany/Denmark (although, because of declining health, that will probably mean I'll never manage it). That's why I'm doing/starting my cycling holidays in places I can get to within 24 hours by train (and now, because of bloody Eurostar being rubbish about bikes, also by ferry).

It makes me sad that I may never see northern Norway again, but hey that's life. We can't have everything we want, can we?

PS The way things are going, there's a good chance that 5 years from now, we'll be able to catch a sleeper train from eg Brussels to Stockholm or Bergen or somewhere nice, and take our bikes on it. Right now they are building a low-energy ship that they plan to use on the Newcastle-Bergen route. Things are changing.
Mike Sales
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Mike Sales »

I agree with Galactic. It is unlikely we can avert climate catastrophe without some inconvenience.
I think that travel should be an experience to be enjoyed. I flew to Sweden and found it like a bus trip but with less to see. I hated it. Never again.
I can enjoy sea travel, and trains too, but ideally my tour starts from my front door on two wheels, and most have.
Of course this may mean exchanging time for money, and this too is a bonus. Less work, more fun.
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mattheus
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

TrevA wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 7:36pm A bit off-topic, but I used to work for Natural England. We were not allowed to fly at all as part of our jobs. If you needed to fly, you had to seek the permission of the chief executive to do so. This contrasted with our sister organisation, the Rural Payments Agency, whose staff would regularly fly from Exeter to Newcastle for work. We were encouraged to use the train to attend meetings.
Cool. And just shows what is perfectly possible at corporation level!
mattheus
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

Mike Sales wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 8:59am I agree with Galactic. It is unlikely we can avert climate catastrophe without some inconvenience.
Indeed. And it should be self-evident.

As evident as realising I cannot easily buy my dream harbour-view trackside apartment in Monaco ... or CAN I?? ... thinks ...
I just need to steal a couple of million off someone. There are ways to do that. Or maybe people-trafficking? Hmm, a lot of details to iron out.

I may be some time ...
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