Why does nobody believe me?

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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 9:51am Pete

I suspect that at the root we might be “loudly agreeing” about much of this.

My point about the versatility of a basic upright began as a counter to the apparent contention that most people don’t use recumbents because they are closed-minded and dismissive, whereas I tend to think that recumbents remain a bit niche because they aren’t as versatile. That probably creates a sort of vicious circle, whereby because they aren’t seen much, people are ignorant of their existence, starter-cyclists don’t even think of them as an option, which limits sales, which keeps prices relatively high, which keeps them out of mainstream bike shops etc.
It's certainly a vicious circle: they're not more popular because they're not more popular...

I don't think it's "most people" dismissing them with non-sequiturs, but there are certainly some. Contrast your curiosity with "you'll never get me on one of those things!" which I've heard from an experienced sport cycling coach. Most people don't go there because they're an unknown quantity and at that sort of price there will be established upright alternatives that any given punter will know will work for them, but "too low, can't be safe, don't confuse me with facts as my mind is made up" is quite a widespread attitude.

Versatility is down to the particular implementation. That the most versatile bike going is an upright doesn't make any given upright inherently versatile. TT bikes, track bikes, BMXs, downhill MTBs, road bikes really aren't that versatile, none of them as are versatile as something like an HPVel Grasshopper, though a Grasshopper is less versatile than an upright hybrid (as its name suggests, a general purpose do a bit of everything).
But despite not being especially versatile, expensive niche road bikes sell far more than the whole recumbent market put together: people know what they're getting and have a use for it.
Nearholmer wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 9:51am Anyway, I still fancy a go on one out of curiosity.
Not just one! Have a go on loads of different ones! And a Moulton, and a Pedersen, and a bakfiets, and a trike, and a lean-to-steer trike, and a unicycle and just everything!

Pete.
Last edited by pjclinch on 4 Jun 2023, 10:26am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stradageek
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Stradageek »

I do still wonder what the world of cycling would look like today if recumbents hadn't been banned by the UCI in 1934

https://bentupcyclingjournal.blogspot.c ... cycle.html

Would a truly 'versatile' recumbent have emerged or have the intervening 89 years been enough for everything to have been tried anyway?

By the same argument what would racing bikes look like freed from UCI constraints?

Just musing :wink:
Jdsk
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Jdsk »

Stradageek wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 10:26am I do still wonder what the world of cycling would look like today if recumbents hadn't been banned by the UCI in 1934

https://bentupcyclingjournal.blogspot.c ... cycle.html

Would a truly 'versatile' recumbent have emerged or have the intervening 89 years been enough for everything to have been tried anyway?

By the same argument what would racing bikes look like freed from UCI constraints?

Just musing
It's a great question.

In a different part of the world of cycling we've recently seen a big increase in dedicated cargo bikes in Oxford. I expect that to somehow enable greater use of recumbents and other minority designs. We'll see.

Jonathan
Tangled Metal
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I had an inkling I wanted to experience a recumbent several years ago now. I read a lot online and since i don't own a dedicated touring bike I thought I'd complete two ticks in one by getting a touring recumbent. At £500 I got a decent if old steel tourer. Fully suspended, not that it was that great, I think it needs a new suspension system as it let's a fair amount of road buzz through. It handles a load well though.

Now whilst I've ridden a few unladen touring uprights I've never ridden a loaded upright tourer so can't fully compare with my loaded recumbent tourer. I have ridden that unladen and a normal upright fully loaded. Imho I prefer to tour on my upright, drop barred bike. I have a large frame bag, two rear panniers, top tube bag, bar bag and dry bag on the top rack. That's enough capacity and my bike copes whilst not being a bad ride. The bent is virtually no different no matter how it's loaded or not. It's not nice loaded at slow speed, huge turning circle or I'll fall off or end up having to catch the whole loaded weight from falling. That was like my upright on my first tour when our kit was too heavy and I had a very heavy, single wheel trailer. It was a beast to handle loaded like that. My kit is lighter now,

Ime my purpose designed touring recumbent isn't as practical on our touring, family holidays as my road/commuter bike. That's my opinion and experience. My reasons are many. We tour on roads but also on cycle paths, even through forests. We also take trains to relocate or to miss out sections we are not interested in. 4 panniers, dry bag and heavy recumbent tourer was a pain to lift on trains even before I had to lift my son's bike up with 2 panniers and help my partner with her 2panniers and MTB. What made the recumbent less practical was the wide USS, weight and extra panniers. It was just less manageable for us.

Now I resisted that idea when my partner pointed it out for the next touring trip. I wanted the recumbent to work for me, indeed us. However the next summer tour i was persuaded to take my upright. By the end of it I was glad I did. It was a better tour.

Now about that fabled comfort thing. I personally dispute that on a few grounds. First would have been easy to sort, the neck ache, by putting on a head rest. The rest less so because it's part of the design of my recumbent. I found the steering caused my hands to buzz, ache and generally get pins and needles. I had to rest each hand by shaking out, like climbers do when hanging upside down, and then letting it hand down near the ground. It was comparable to when I'm bad a flat bar hybrid. I had about half an hour on that before my forearms, wrists and hands ached, went numb and got pins and needles. I never experienced issues on my upright, drop barred bike. Finally elevated feet position. It might be bad circulation but that was causing me issues. In fact my experience, my only recumbent experience, was of a touring recumbent that was less comfortable than my upright commuter, even loaded. So I doubt the comfort thing is as good as recumbent aficionados say.

This is just my experience. An experience of someone who was an absolute fan of recumbents until I got to use one over an extended period of time. An experience of one type of bike over a year of continued use plus 2 or 3 week tour. It was a type of bike I needed, as in full blooded tourer, but it didn't work for me.

Now someone upthread said that people write them off without giving them a fair try. That's not what I did. I had a need for a touring bike and a desire to try recumbents. I got a highly rated recumbent for touring on and gave it a good try. A long period of time to get used to it and a fully loaded, family cycle tour. I found that in its intended use I found it less practical for our needs than an upright bike not even designed for loaded touring. I think recumbent fans need to understand that bike choice is always down to personal opinion and experience. It is not for anyone to fully know what's right for another. So I think you just need to accept that others have a different opinion and even experience to you on bike choice and especially recumbent bikes.
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by UpWrong »

I'm not going to argue with TM's touring experience of both formats, but it largely doesn't tally with my touring experience of both formats.
Having said that, all my touring has been two pannier plus rack bag touring for maybe 5 days. I have toured on 3 recumbents: Giro 20, Nazca Paseo and P-38. I have toured twice on a steel Raleigh drop bar bike and it nearly killed me. My hands were so numb I struggled enormously to unbutton or button up my trousers.

All my 'bents have had overseat steering. I've been on crowded trains in the Netherlands and Germany and not had any problems.
Psamathe
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Psamathe »

I did 5 weeks camping last summer in NL on my tadpole bent and no issues. Two hiccups, one kissing gate on a cycle path I couldn't get through (but then Dutch cyclists on 2 wheel DFs were having to list their bikes over) and a tight offset zig-zap on a cycle path that was tight and required listing rear round (but Dutch people on their cargo bikes were finding it tighter than I did).

And in NL on my tadpole bent I don't have to follow the mandatory cycle path signs if I chose not to (my understanding)

Ian
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

There's plenty of variation between riders and between their needs. If there was a single Best Touring Bike then there wouldn't be any others because everyone would use the Best one...

The Streetmachine works brilliantly for me, not for Tangled Metal, hardly surprising it's not perfect for everyone. My experience is quite straightforward to measure: drop bar tourer, regardless of luggage count, my neck, wrists and elbows are uncomfortable to the point of "would like to stop now" after about 50 miles. Streetmachine I can keep going as long as my legs are turning (100 miles biggest to date, so twice as far, at least). That's a pretty big Fun Differential! The better luggage handling and more sure-footed descending are icing, but extended comfort as my body feeds back is the cake.

That some people, like TM, do try and aren't blown away by is clearly true. But those experimenters don't mean that the "won't even consider riding one, never mind buying one" crew don't exist. They clearly do too. I think most are just too worried (about safety, and/or being an Attention Magnet), others are, frankly, snobs and probably worry a lot about "The Rules".

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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

And another point reinforcing how individual model variation is considerable...
When selecting her own 'bent my wife tried quite a few, both in Scotland and over in NL. I tried several others on that trip too, just out of interest to compare to my Streetmachine. She'd ridden my Streetmachine and liked the idea, but not enough to buy one. So whatever it was it had to appeal more than that.

One option was a Rainbow Lyner. It was a 26/20 short wheelbase underseat steer full sus machine designed for loaded touring, on paper pretty much the same as a Streetmachine. We both rated it "meh". If that had been my 'bent experience I might have gone for it if it was a special deal, but there again probably wouldn't have bothered. It was solid but dull.

At that point my wife had a problem, which was having tried all the ones that on paper and by review were what she'd be choosing from and not been wowed by any, what to do?
There was a rather natty Nazca Fiero Tour which she'd ruled out on paper as impractical but I wanted a go just for fun, so I had a go and it was an absolute blast, so I suggested Roos had a go too. She returned from a short spin with a huge grin on her face, and though worried it was too low to do laden off-road bought one anyway.
Turns out it's done loaded off-road whenever it's been asked of it. It's even coped with NCN1!

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yostumpy
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by yostumpy »

Quick history lesson, .....I've always cycled, the older I get, the more I ride. I splashed out and bought a Bob Jackson world tour frameset, went to Leeds to pick it up, and built into a stunning retro machine, t'was a joy, it was, for 2 years then ...BANG! got swiped on a roundabout end of BJ. Looked around and wanted something slightly more robust, and bought a Ridgeback World panorama Deluxe, in 2016. We have covered over 40,000km together, and it is extreemly versatile, Audax, long day rides, rough stuff weekends in the wildest of places and weather in winter. Then during lockdown I felt uneasy, so many daily deaths, and I became aware that actually I was cycling so much, I was actually in pain sometimes. I started googling one day and came across a website...https://www.nextstopwhere.com/category/recumbents/
and thought WOW, this looks like the answer. I studied different models, but being a designer (architectural) and a keen mechanic /engineer, I could see the ergonomic advantages, and decided that for me ,it HAD to be a Streetmachine GTE, in ORANGE, with disc brakes and underseat steering. I just knew it would work for me, deep down i was not the slightest bit skeptical , I knew it would work. I searched and found exactly what I wanted, in lockdown, and managed to get it transported 1/2 way across the country. I've had it just over 3 years now, have put many thousands of miles on it, bought a second hand doggy trailer for £20, and have carried ridiculously heavy loads with it, I have taken it offroad many times, I regularly race on it with the BHPC, I can get up every hill I've tried so far, it's fun.
Now here's the crunch, they are completely different things, its like comparing swimming with running, both exercise, yes, but different. I tend to use my Upright tourer over the winter, so much so, that I start to think......''do I still need my GTE' , and this goes on until about march/April, then I pull out the GTE, short acclimatization ride, then next day off I go. legs ache a bit after a 60km ride, but my goodness, what a difference, Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo comfortable, then I ride it more and more and by November its the uprights time again, and it all feels so strange. I try to mix a bit, but to be honest when I want to do a nice 100km day ride, I'd much rather sit in a comfy chair,than sit on a narrow perch, hunched over. Don't forget it's a tourer, and I do race it despite it weighing about 17kg+ . I've attached a couple of pics, and a link to a video of my last race for perusal. (yes I do get a bit close to the trikes in front sometimes)..... enjoy !!

ImageIMG_0183 by mark tilley, on Flickr

Imagehillingdon 1 21 014 by mark tilley, on Flickr



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NncsaUpaFY8&t=5s



Anyway , back to the OP, yes I have tried, in vain to convince people about the best kept secret in the cycling world, but now tbh, I can't be bothered, it's their loss, and most people are sheep anwyay, if one jumps........
Tangled Metal
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Tangled Metal »

We're all different. I get more comfort cycling my upright on tours than the recumbent numb hands were a big issue on the bent not on upright. No idea why I got the opposite effect to PJC but I did.
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Tangled Metal wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 6:48am We're all different. I get more comfort cycling my upright on tours than the recumbent numb hands were a big issue on the bent not on upright. No idea why I got the opposite effect to PJC but I did.
Aye, it's never any weight on my hands that makes the biggest comfort difference to me. I like Dutch oma/opafietsen for the same reason, but you catch the wind a hell of a lot more on those and the seat isn't so comfy after a few hours!

Pete.
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Stradageek
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Stradageek »

Tangled Metal wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 6:48am We're all different. I get more comfort cycling my upright on tours than the recumbent numb hands were a big issue on the bent not on upright. No idea why I got the opposite effect to PJC but I did.
That is indeed very odd. Apologies if I missed the detail but are we talking USS, hamster bars, open-cockpit or tiller steering? I have all four and oddly the one on which I find myself changing hand position most often is USS but I wouldn't call even the USS uncomfortable and I've ridden all day on all of them. To put this in context, my principal reason for abandoning uprights was the hand/shoulder/neck pain.

Is it possible that you were fighting with the steering more than you realised?

As a case in point, though this doesn't cause me any hand pain, I have a Bacchetta Strada with a large frame to accommodate my long legs. Steering is easy and stability excellent but you can't really ride no-hands. On one occasion I switched to my mates Bacchetta Corsa and though cycling with my knees in the air (he's got much shorter legs) I found I could easily cycle no-hands.

On the other hand (no pun intended) it could, of course, just be your particular physiology :?
Stradageek
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Stradageek »

Stradageek wrote: 1 Jun 2023, 12:51pm My latest attempt to get a friend to try the 'dark side' is being thwarted by all his acquaintances telling him he mustn't ride them because they are so dangerous.
Update:

The friend in question has bought the recumbent in question (an Oke-Ja) let's see how he gets on :D
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pjclinch
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by pjclinch »

Stradageek wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 9:26am
Tangled Metal wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 6:48am We're all different. I get more comfort cycling my upright on tours than the recumbent numb hands were a big issue on the bent not on upright. No idea why I got the opposite effect to PJC but I did.
That is indeed very odd. Apologies if I missed the detail but are we talking USS, hamster bars, open-cockpit or tiller steering? I have all four and oddly the one on which I find myself changing hand position most often is USS but I wouldn't call even the USS uncomfortable and I've ridden all day on all of them. To put this in context, my principal reason for abandoning uprights was the hand/shoulder/neck pain.

Is it possible that you were fighting with the steering more than you realised?

As a case in point, though this doesn't cause me any hand pain, I have a Bacchetta Strada with a large frame to accommodate my long legs. Steering is easy and stability excellent but you can't really ride no-hands. On one occasion I switched to my mates Bacchetta Corsa and though cycling with my knees in the air (he's got much shorter legs) I found I could easily cycle no-hands.

On the other hand (no pun intended) it could, of course, just be your particular physiology :?
One of the things I like I like about 'bents (and, perhaps ironically, sit-bolt-upright uprights) is you don't actually need any grip to speak of on the bars at all bar whatever is needed to pull the brake lever of tweak a shifter. On the Streetmachine I can't ride it no-hands, but one finger gently rested on one bar is enough to keep it steady, so a frequent "hand change position" is one hand just in my lap.

There is an interesting design, the Flevobike and Flevobike Racer, where the steering is effected through a simple hinge in the middle of the frame. The handlebars exist to hold the brake & gear levers and don't affect the steering at all, which you do by cant of your legs as you pedal. Never had a chance to try one, I hear thy take a bit of getting used to!

A caveat on the above, I've personally never been able to fully relax with tiller bars, even on a bike where I'm completely fine with underseat or scorpion bars. Don't know why, but they just don't work so well for me and I always feel a bit nervous with them. Had a 'bent acquaintance who found the opposite.

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Tangled Metal
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Re: Why does nobody believe me?

Post by Tangled Metal »

SMGT, USS and a light touch. Usually index and middle finger on the outside to kind of only prevent it steering on a pothole. It kind of wants to steering straight so I only need to guide it gently as needed.

My issue is that whilst the handles are right where my arm length would want them, it simply isn't comfortable after less than half an hour. I can ride all day on an upright drop bar bike if it was only down to hand grip comfort, it's not and my fitness limits how long I can ride but it's a lot longer on my upright before I need to do something.

I realise this seems counter intuitive to many recumbent riders but I have read a few other bent riders with comfort issues with their bents so I'm not completely alone here.
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