Europe: Flying or not?

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pwa
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by pwa »

ChrisF wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:16pm
Vorpal wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 1:40pm
A bike in a box is just luggage for most rail services. On Eurostar, you can take a boxed bike as far as Paris or Brussels, which should be enough, as you can change to other services for whichever route you take onward.
You have to box a bike to take it on a plane, anyways.
Yes, but you only have to load it an one airport and unload it at anoher. You don't have to drag it around eight stations.
Galactic wrote: 2 Jun 2023, 9:46am
Nevertheless, since the necessary change at a societal level isn't being organised by those responsible (ie the elected governments), it falls to us as individuals to do the work, no matter how puny our efforts often seem.
That's really getting back to the point of my original post. The efforts of individuals refusing to fly will be puny. But if, instead, we helped those organisations which have the knowhow to lobby governments, we'll make much more of a difference - won't we?
Still not sure which organisations to help. The question has a wider purpose; I am in the process of writing my will and would like to bequeath a percentage to such causes.
And carry on flying in the meantime? :wink:
Galactic
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Galactic »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:08pm There are ferries that go to northern Norway. Hurtigruten & Havila go from Bergen to Nordkapp & there are other ferries that do portions of that.
Well yes. There are also trains from Oslo to the north (mostly run by SJ who seemingly hate bikes). But just getting to Bergen is, to quote mjr, a faff faff faff. (For those who are interested: ferry Kiel-Oslo is probably the easiest, but v. expensive, and if you're worried about late arrival at Oslo, then a night in Oslo is a good idea before jumping on the train (more expense). Or get to Copenhagen for the ferry, or cycle up through Sweden to Oslo. All possible, all exhausting and expensive.)

Once (if) the Newcastle-Bergen ferry is reinstated then the Hurtigruten becomes a possible route, albeit one I'll have to start saving for right now :cry: .
Galactic
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Galactic »

ChrisF wrote: 3 Jun 2023, 9:16pm That's really getting back to the point of my original post. The efforts of individuals refusing to fly will be puny.
Well yes, if we add up our CO2e emissions and compare them to the whole, puny indeed. But it was pointed out upthread that individuals refusing to fly can have a disproportionate effect, because the infrastructure relies on volume.

Also, I know from experience (haven't flown for over 30 years), that just by not flying we have a knock on effect - and that's even without evangalising. We are normalising respectful behaviour, encouraging others to think about what they are doing (and I guess your question and the discussion on this and other threads are part of that?).

These things are drops on hot stones, straws on camels' backs, angels' wings shaving mountaintops: every little helps, and it's hard to appreciate the impact unless we happen to be there when the stone cools, the back breaks and the mountain crumbles. To me, that says: don't give up, carry on doing the right thing rather than being a cog turning another cog that spins a wheel that will take us closer to the collapse of our life support systems and our civilisation.
pwa
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by pwa »

I have a pond in my back garden. Stocked with native plants in the hope that it will increase local wildlife, especially amphibians. I have put a bit of money and effort into it over the last 25 years, occasionally digging out, re-lining, buying new plants. And it has a great population of newts. But no frogs or toads this year. Locally, and across the UK, the population of frogs and toads has plummeted. My pond on its own hasn't been enough to save the local population. Should I have sat on my hands and done nothing, simply because not enough other people were putting ponds in their gardens? Is that what we are meant to do when we spot that something needs doing? Wait until everyone else comes to the same realisation? I'm sticking with my pond maintenance, waiting for others to catch up. Part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Tim Holman
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Tim Holman »

Look, we all have individual responsibility for climate emergency. No amount of "Offset" will alter the fact that the Earth is going to hell in a handbasket and we all need to stop our unnecessary and damaging feeling of indignation that there is a Human Right to travelling on a whim and at any cost whether it is personally or environmentally disastrous. Why are we cyclists? I know most of us are car drivers too and we all carry the burden of shame,
Tim
Vorpal
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Vorpal »

Galactic wrote: 4 Jun 2023, 6:41am
Once (if) the Newcastle-Bergen ferry is reinstated then the Hurtigruten becomes a possible route, albeit one I'll have to start saving for right now :cry: .
Havila are a little less expensive.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Galactic
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Galactic »

Vorpal wrote: 5 Jun 2023, 8:23am Havila are a little less expensive.
Ouch, still something I'll have to save long and hard for!

But useful to know, until now I'd thought they only did cruises. Wasn't aware they did port-to-port as well.
BenSearle
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by BenSearle »

I've just taken a car on the Brittany Ferries on the Plymouth to Santander and Bilbao to Portsmouth routes. I am hoping to go back next year with friends, by bike, no car. They have a perverse pricing structure whereby it's cheaper to go by car than on foot or with a cycle. As an example, on the 21st June 2023, it is £565 with a car (or motorhome!) with 4 passengers, or £780 for 4 cyclists and £840 for four foot passengers. Four people with four motorcycles pay £1300 (cabins extra in all cases). I like the ferry overall but do not want to feel exploited by Brittany Ferries, and don't want to fly either. Surely their costs of providing for 4 people without a car or large van are lower? I have just complained to them.
pwa
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by pwa »

BenSearle wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 11:12pm I've just taken a car on the Brittany Ferries on the Plymouth to Santander and Bilbao to Portsmouth routes. I am hoping to go back next year with friends, by bike, no car. They have a perverse pricing structure whereby it's cheaper to go by car than on foot or with a cycle. As an example, on the 21st June 2023, it is £565 with a car (or motorhome!) with 4 passengers, or £780 for 4 cyclists and £840 for four foot passengers. Four people with four motorcycles pay £1300 (cabins extra in all cases). I like the ferry overall but do not want to feel exploited by Brittany Ferries, and don't want to fly either. Surely their costs of providing for 4 people without a car or large van are lower? I have just complained to them.
You are right. That is bizarre.
PT1029
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by PT1029 »

Check Brittany Ferries website, see what it says about climate change etc. If they say how wonderfully green they are, may be write to the CEO and ask them how to explain the greeness (and logic) of their pricing structure.
Sometimes such letters makes the big honcho think, and change slowly emerges.
mattheus
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

BenSearle wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 11:12pm I've just taken a car on the Brittany Ferries on the Plymouth to Santander and Bilbao to Portsmouth routes. I am hoping to go back next year with friends, by bike, no car. They have a perverse pricing structure whereby it's cheaper to go by car than on foot or with a cycle. As an example, on the 21st June 2023, it is £565 with a car (or motorhome!) with 4 passengers, or £780 for 4 cyclists and £840 for four foot passengers. Four people with four motorcycles pay £1300 (cabins extra in all cases). I like the ferry overall but do not want to feel exploited by Brittany Ferries, and don't want to fly either. Surely their costs of providing for 4 people without a car or large van are lower? I have just complained to them.
Just be joyous that you're better off than the foot passengers!
Jdsk
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Jdsk »

BenSearle wrote: 6 Jun 2023, 11:12pm I've just taken a car on the Brittany Ferries on the Plymouth to Santander and Bilbao to Portsmouth routes. I am hoping to go back next year with friends, by bike, no car. They have a perverse pricing structure whereby it's cheaper to go by car than on foot or with a cycle. As an example, on the 21st June 2023, it is £565 with a car (or motorhome!) with 4 passengers, or £780 for 4 cyclists and £840 for four foot passengers. Four people with four motorcycles pay £1300 (cabins extra in all cases). I like the ferry overall but do not want to feel exploited by Brittany Ferries, and don't want to fly either. Surely their costs of providing for 4 people without a car or large van are lower? I have just complained to them.
I recommend checking with Cycling UK to see if they've made any progress:
viewtopic.php?p=1734811#p1734811

Jonathan
simonhill
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by simonhill »

That's scandalous. I'd write to someone like Simon Calder (travel writer and cyclist). He may publish.

Back to flying. As someone who wants to mitigate his flying, I am well aware of how much CO2 is produced by just staying at home, particularly in the winter. Trying to get comparable figures in an ever changing field (technological improvements, different calculations and standards, etc) is difficult. Plus airline CO2 is up in the sky while most other is down here.

Nonetheless, I was surprised to see this. I've never heard of Nesta.
https://www.nesta.org.uk/press-release/ ... emissions)

Bottom line: most people unaware of what generates most CO2 in their lives.

Headline is: annual gas central heating boiler produces CO2 of 6 London to New York flights.
mattheus
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Location: Western Europe

Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by mattheus »

simonhill wrote: 7 Jun 2023, 2:32pm
Nonetheless, I was surprised to see this. I've never heard of Nesta.
https://www.nesta.org.uk/press-release/ ... emissions)

Bottom line: most people unaware of what generates most CO2 in their lives.

Headline is: annual gas central heating boiler produces CO2 of 6 London to New York flights.
I've never heard of them either. I tried to read their website - after nuermous pages of buzzword bingo, I gave up trying to find what they actually DO.
I might be proved wrong, but I am deeply sceptical of their objectives ...
Vorpal
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Re: Europe: Flying or not?

Post by Vorpal »

I thought of this thread today. I was standing in the queue for the canteen, which is shared by several companies.

Someone who works for another firm was complaining to a colleague that there are no direct flights between Oslo and Gothenburg. That's a 3-1/2 hour train, bus, or car journey. Admittedly, it's longer on the train this week due to engineering works, but it wouldn't even occur to me to fly.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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