There is such a thread, you started that thread (ie. it’s yours) and you started it after this thread was running. People can choose which threads they contribute to and which they feel are best to express their thoughts in.Jdsk wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 6:08pmMy emboldening. And now vice versa.Discussions surrounding them have repeatedly taken other threads off topic so I thought it might make sense for there to be a thread to talk about their qualities.
We have a highly suitable thread to talk about all of the other important aspects of national transport strategy. It's called "National Transport Strategy":
viewtopic.php?t=155477
Jonathan
BEVs
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Re: BEVs
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Re: BEVs
Providing BEVs have the range and or infrastructure for long distance travel and more importantly are affordable for the average UK earner.Jdsk wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 6:13pmIt isn't a matter of "working" or "not working". As with the power generation discussion this needs numbers. Switching from ICEVs to BEVs will make a worthwhile contribution to carbon dioxide emission being lower than would otherwise be the case.Mike Sales wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 6:09pm ...
The carbon problem will not be solved without a reduction in motor traffic: changing to electric will not work.
...
Many other changes are also needed.
Jonathan
Currently neither of those issues have been resolved to the ordinary wo/man on the street and don't look like they will be anytime soon.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Re: BEVs
Three very important points about BEVs.reohn2 wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 6:35pm ...
Providing BEVs have the range and or infrastructure for long distance travel and more importantly are affordable for the average UK earner.
Currently neither of those issues have been resolved to the ordinary wo/man on the street and don't look like they will be anytime soon.
Jonathan
Re: BEVs
Jdsk wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 3:43pmYes, as always it depends on what precise question is being asked. This thread would improve enormously with a bit more emphasis on that.Carlton green wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 3:38pmI suggest that using an older VW electric car is a fair comparison. Reuse of older cars should be encouraged over needless new manufacture and VW products are generally pretty good. My days of getting a new car are gone, limited need and income now I’m retired, and many others buy second hand too.
But the quoted comparison was for new cars. And BEVs have developed enormously since 2014.
Jonathan
Here's a graphic from the climobil site which was posted early in this thread, using a current model. It's even worse than for the older one, on account of the longer range battery.
Re: BEVs
This is my feeling. Our transport needs to be re-invented, as it were.Mike Sales wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 5:07pm With all the fuss about the damn things, here and elsewhere, one might think that they were the solution to our transport problems. I often get the feeling that they are a salve for sore consciences.
Most of the discussion here is whether they can make a one for one substitute for the filthy ice, without having to change lifestyles, or about which variety of engine is marginally less polluting.
Yes, my feelings also.Carlton green wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 5:35pm
Electric cars certainly aren’t a good solution to transport problems and in someways I think they make matters worse.
Oh yes, electric cars are great for the conscience. You can profess to caring and doing your bit and then do as you please regardless of the actual environmental and societal costs.
Changing lifestyles is what’s really needed rather than changing cars or propulsion systems. The former makes a difference and the latter is pretty much tinkering around the edge of the issue.
Re: BEVs
Jdsk wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 6:08pmMy emboldening. And now vice versa.Discussions surrounding them have repeatedly taken other threads off topic so I thought it might make sense for there to be a thread to talk about their qualities.
We have a highly suitable thread to talk about all of the other important aspects of national transport strategy. It's called "National Transport Strategy":
viewtopic.php?t=155477
Jonathan
On many occasions through this thread I've talked up qualities of electric vehicles, including those of the battery car. I find it very interesting on several levels that a group who appear to believe everything the government tells them (when they agree with it) find my take on it to be somehow as an 'anti', the EV should be a wonderful thing yet all the signs are that it's going in the same, wrong direction as the ICEv, with added power and mass for good measure.
One of the reasons I started the thread was because I feel there's been a general mis-leading of the public with respect to how environmentally friendly the BEV is. I've tried hard to stick to the facts, which have annoyed some to distraction.
What I have observed is that the hardest facts - such as the particulates mentioned a page or two ago - are completely ignored by those who are believers. Until we all acknowledge reality, we're doomed. It's not just GWP, but eutrophication potential and human toxicity potential - EP and HTP. And a couple of others.
I fully appreciate even a 20% improvement in lifecycle GW emissions is an enormous reduction in real terms, but the drive is so poorly focused that it's a granny with a 12 year old Yaris and negligible emissions driving 3-4k a year who is more likely to be pressured into buying a vehicle with a huge battery than a delivery driver driving a van. It's akin to the Drax problem.
There seems to be a worldwide political agenda which fails to take account of the real world, cooked up by people with little practical understanding and implemented by those who have a lust for power. As electric car loving Rowan Atkinson notes, they have the potential (!) to be brilliant (for the planet) sometime soon, but those who recommend a very rapid transition and deny any other technology fail to see all that would entail.
Re: BEVs
And mine too on both counts,they're the latest car selling hook to catch the unwary in their belief they are saving the world which patently not so and also with only limited scope of use.Biospace wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 9:49pmThis is my feeling. Our transport needs to be re-invented, as it were.Mike Sales wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 5:07pm With all the fuss about the damn things, here and elsewhere, one might think that they were the solution to our transport problems. I often get the feeling that they are a salve for sore consciences.
Most of the discussion here is whether they can make a one for one substitute for the filthy ice, without having to change lifestyles, or about which variety of engine is marginally less polluting.
Yes, my feelings also.Carlton green wrote: ↑8 Jun 2023, 5:35pm
Electric cars certainly aren’t a good solution to transport problems and in someways I think they make matters worse.
Oh yes, electric cars are great for the conscience. You can profess to caring and doing your bit and then do as you please regardless of the actual environmental and societal costs.
Changing lifestyles is what’s really needed rather than changing cars or propulsion systems. The former makes a difference and the latter is pretty much tinkering around the edge of the issue.
The answer to travel within cities and towns isn't the car no matter how green it is or claims to be.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Re: BEVs
Rowan Atkinson's article has gone round the world, it seems.
Hopefully it's generating some good debate which involves people determining some hard facts, so that those who believe piston engines are the future for personal transport may see just how good electric motors and fuel cells are, how rapidly battery technology is advancing. And those who've been led to believe the BEV is in some way a panacea may be made aware of reality.
It's encouraging to see some voices of reasoned thinking in The Guardian today, https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... g-electric
(click to enlarge)
Hopefully it's generating some good debate which involves people determining some hard facts, so that those who believe piston engines are the future for personal transport may see just how good electric motors and fuel cells are, how rapidly battery technology is advancing. And those who've been led to believe the BEV is in some way a panacea may be made aware of reality.
It's encouraging to see some voices of reasoned thinking in The Guardian today, https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... g-electric
(click to enlarge)
Re: BEVs
There's a lot of noise from anti-ev types about RA's article, but I don't see any convincing arguments in there. He uses some strawman arguments - e.g. nobody with any sense has suggested that EVs are a panacea for climate change. Nobody is forcing you to sell your almost newcar and buy an ev. He complains that other solutions are being ignored, but that's not true there are companies working on hybrids, hydrogen etc, but the reality is that none of the alternatives actually work in the real world and deliver the environmental benefits.
Re: BEVs
Should I take it I'm one of your "anti-ev types"?
Regarding synthesised hydrogen (and possibly methane) from excess, unused renewables generation - of which there's already plenty, there'll be a lot more as the offshore wind generation increases - both Toyota and Hyundai continue to invest heavily as well as in BEVs. Presumably these decisions aren't ones based on faith or beliefs, someone will have carefully analysed the figures.
Articles like this https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com ... c-vehicles suggest making enough batteries is just possible given the amount of lithium our planet contains, whereas this one https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... -vehicles/ highlights some problems.
How much fossil fuel is required for the mining, transportation, processing and recycling of batteries and their constituents? What is the toxic legacy? Green hydrogen or methane is relatively inefficient in production compared with electricity harvested from wind, solar and tidal energy but it's also a fuel store and so a battery in itself.
I would expect it unlikely most personal, motorised transport would be hydrogen based and have long suspected that it will only be useful for industries with high energy demands and possibly inter-seasonal storage used for space heating, but few are more successful than either Toyota or Hyundai.
Re: BEVs
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Re: BEVs
Well after owning and driving ours for a week I'd be gutted if I had to go back to an ic car. Far nicer and simple to drive. Nice an quiet. Bloody quick thing too when off eco mode! Far too quick for wet roads.
You're better keeping it in eco not just for the range but for the fact that other road users don't expect you to be where you are because it's so fast and silent.
With this sunny weather I've been charging it for free off the solar panels during the day but for all we use it ( well she uses it mostly ) it only needs charged about once a week.
I use the bicycle at any excuse.
You're better keeping it in eco not just for the range but for the fact that other road users don't expect you to be where you are because it's so fast and silent.
With this sunny weather I've been charging it for free off the solar panels during the day but for all we use it ( well she uses it mostly ) it only needs charged about once a week.
I use the bicycle at any excuse.
I am here. Where are you?
Re: BEVs
Which kind of suggests that RA was wrong to suggest that alternatives are being ignored?Biospace wrote: ↑12 Jun 2023, 4:51pm
Regarding synthesised hydrogen (and possibly methane) from excess, unused renewables generation - of which there's already plenty, there'll be a lot more as the offshore wind generation increases - both Toyota and Hyundai continue to invest heavily as well as in BEVs. Presumably these decisions aren't ones based on faith or beliefs, someone will have carefully analysed the figures.
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Re: BEVs
I feel like the above isn’t completely true or, at least, misleads. Car dealers and retailers are essentially interested in selling the customer the highest profit item that they can. As such nobody appears to be much interested in pushing small cars like the electric VW up and there’s a lot of money being spent on very large electric SUV’s - with rather substantial price tickets. As such I’d say that alternative technologies or solutions are being ignored in favour of greater and easier profits elsewhere.the snail wrote: ↑11 Jun 2023, 4:22pm There's a lot of noise from anti-ev types about RA's article, but I don't see any convincing arguments in there. He uses some strawman arguments - e.g. nobody with any sense has suggested that EVs are a panacea for climate change. Nobody is forcing you to sell your almost newcar and buy an ev. He complains that other solutions are being ignored, but that's not true there are companies working on hybrids, hydrogen etc, but the reality is that none of the alternatives actually work in the real world and deliver the environmental benefits.
I’m not completely without sympathy for car manufacturers and dealers, but like cigarette manufacturers rather than change their business model they’ll keep making whatever is profitable without much thought for social consequences
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.