The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

pete75
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by pete75 »

mjr wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:15pm
pwa wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 3:57pmHas anyone here been deterred from cycling to a NT place because cycle parking wasn't advertised? Or because there was a big carpark that you might have to cycle across? That isn't something that has ever deterred me or my family from cycling to an attraction.
Do we only care about the types of cyclists found on these forums? I think the above also underestimates how many people deal with the uncertainty or known hostility of visiting by cycle, by simply motoring instead, where they can see it's much more expected of them and experience suggests they'll be treated better.
What hostility? I've been to a fair few NT places on my bike and never encountered any. Staff always pleasant and friendly.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by pwa »

harriedgary wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 1:57pm
mattheus wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 2:24pm
NickWi wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 2:12pm What you have to remember is the NT is now a Charity, and like all big charities nowadays, that means it run as a business. Yes, it still does get money from the Government, but it's on a grant for a project basis rather than the old here's the cash, spend it as you see fit basis.
Things can't be that simple; there is a current minor kerfuffle in the news about Oxfam (a charity for sorting out global poverty issues, mainly), producing a bunch of publicity-type bumph to support Pride [an LGBTQ+ rainbow-positive movement].
How do they justify spending on THAT?!? (I've nothing against Pride, to be clear - just asking about how charities may choose to spend their monies!]
I'll have words up on high with Oxfam about this as clearly we have failed to get the message across.

We promote LGBTQA+ because people who fall into one of those areas typically face much worse poverty than straight cis people do, in countries around the world. You all know that we fundraise for countries in Africa like Chad, Ethiopia, Ghana, Malawi and many others. Places where there are regular droughts, major disease outbreaks, crops destroyed by pests, flooding, and of course war.
Unfortunately as a consequence of past colonial rule, many of these countries have restrictive laws on homosexuality etc. Laws so repugnant and biased that people who are gay, lesbian etc, face not only been ostracised by family and community, but imprisoned for lengthy periods.
Consequently they have fewer support networks, i.e people who help them in times of need. They are even less likely to have work because of discrimination. They are more likely to be homeless, and more likely to suffer ill health due to been denied health care.
In a country where the majority of people might be living on a few dollars a day, these people might have even less.
So, because Oxfam care for all (and we do actually operate in European countries too!) we try to reduce the economic effects of stigma against gay and lesbian people.
So were the ads directed at, for instance, African nations with poor records on this, rather than the UK?
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by mjr »

pete75 wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 3:48pm
mjr wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:15pm
pwa wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 3:57pmHas anyone here been deterred from cycling to a NT place because cycle parking wasn't advertised? Or because there was a big carpark that you might have to cycle across? That isn't something that has ever deterred me or my family from cycling to an attraction.
Do we only care about the types of cyclists found on these forums? I think the above also underestimates how many people deal with the uncertainty or known hostility of visiting by cycle, by simply motoring instead, where they can see it's much more expected of them and experience suggests they'll be treated better.
What hostility? I've been to a fair few NT places on my bike and never encountered any. Staff always pleasant and friendly.
🙄 not the staff! They're usually quite apologetic about the shortage of cycle parking, even if they've often no solution to offer except trying again another time.

There's often hostility from motorists visiting the site, because most NT sites give you no choice other than to cycle among motorists parking their cars (Anglesey Abbey is a notable exception), which I suppose you could call cycling-hostile design.
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cycle tramp
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by cycle tramp »

pwa wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:52pm
drossall wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:37pm
mattheus wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 2:24pmThings can't be that simple; there is a current minor kerfuffle in the news about Oxfam (a charity for sorting out global poverty issues, mainly), producing a bunch of publicity-type bumph to support Pride [an LGBTQ+ rainbow-positive movement].
How do they justify spending on THAT?!? (I've nothing against Pride, to be clear - just asking about how charities may choose to spend their monies!]
Demonstrable EDI policies and practices are required of charities under the governance code, which has the full support of the Charity Commission. So basically yes, it is that simple.
I too wondered how Oxfam came to be campaigning on an issue outside its brief. Of course it has to fulfill its brief (addressing poverty) in a way that respects all sorts fo people, including those in LGBTQ+ minorities. But it is not meant to be a charity campaigning on that front. People don't give it money to address every issue. They give it money to address a particular issue.
As along time supporter of Oxfam, I do support their campaigns for tolerance... as well as their more central themes...
Man does not live by bread alone.

(And the idea that I should be shocked or disgusted by how two or more consenting adults should spend their time, (on the proviso that no harm is done), is utterly ridiculous. I simply don't have the time to care and, quite frankly neither should anyone else).
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pete75
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by pete75 »

mjr wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 6:26pm
pete75 wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 3:48pm
mjr wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:15pm

Do we only care about the types of cyclists found on these forums? I think the above also underestimates how many people deal with the uncertainty or known hostility of visiting by cycle, by simply motoring instead, where they can see it's much more expected of them and experience suggests they'll be treated better.
What hostility? I've been to a fair few NT places on my bike and never encountered any. Staff always pleasant and friendly.
🙄 not the staff! They're usually quite apologetic about the shortage of cycle parking, even if they've often no solution to offer except trying again another time.

There's often hostility from motorists visiting the site, because most NT sites give you no choice other than to cycle among motorists parking their cars (Anglesey Abbey is a notable exception), which I suppose you could call cycling-hostile design.
You've often experinced hostility from motorists at NT properties? Never have myself. The relatively genteel types who visit NT properties seem unlikely "hostiles".
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by pwa »

cycle tramp wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 6:46pm
pwa wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:52pm
drossall wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 5:37pm
Demonstrable EDI policies and practices are required of charities under the governance code, which has the full support of the Charity Commission. So basically yes, it is that simple.
I too wondered how Oxfam came to be campaigning on an issue outside its brief. Of course it has to fulfill its brief (addressing poverty) in a way that respects all sorts fo people, including those in LGBTQ+ minorities. But it is not meant to be a charity campaigning on that front. People don't give it money to address every issue. They give it money to address a particular issue.
As along time supporter of Oxfam, I do support their campaigns for tolerance... as well as their more central themes...
Man does not live by bread alone.

(And the idea that I should be shocked or disgusted by how two or more consenting adults should spend their time, (on the proviso that no harm is done), is utterly ridiculous. I simply don't have the time to care and, quite frankly neither should anyone else).
I too don't care how others choose to live their lives, so long as they don't harm others. And I do think Oxfam, as an employer, has to have policies of tolerance and respect, which all staff must follow. But their public campaigns, surely, must be on their core mission. In the same way I'd not expect the RSPB to be campaigning on this issue, and I'd not expect Oxfam to be campaigning on the subject of domestic abuse within the UK.
cycle tramp
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by cycle tramp »

Oh, absolutely- and I suspect there may even be a segment of oxfam supporters who will perhaps withdraw furrther donations as the funds aren't used for digging bore holes or laying pipes or distributing drought resistance seeds and everything else that can assist those who have very very little..
But for me there is a point where if we can build stuff like the tolerance of different religious spiritual beliefs, sexual preferences and political tolerances at the same time as material support, the idea of tolerance tends to take better in the mind, whereas if its applied after everyone has full bellies, clean water and a safe place to sleep, the ideal of tolerance takes less well.
On the RSPB domestic abuse front.. sadly two of my chickens, having spent most of the spring dispatching small rats, have sadly killed a young blackbird. I am sorry. I suspect a campaign against the dangers of chickens and their effects on the wild bird population will commence shortly.
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Bird watching has a rather white, male, middle class image, so actually I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a RSPB campaign to rectify that image and broaden the demographic profile of birdwatchers (to the extent that the image accurately reflects the reality). In fact someone else has already written a book about it! https://www.birdgirluk.com (Yes, I realize that watching birds is just the tip of the iceberg of RSPB work; and also that this has nothing to do with the issue of NT car parks!)
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plancashire
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by plancashire »

NickWi wrote: 8 Jun 2023, 2:12pm ...
Which brings us back to the OP's original point, a new & big car park with no or few facilities for cyclists. This clearly demonstrates we (cyclists), just don't feature in their business model. It's nothing personal, just a business model that equates car/coach based punters as it's main revenue stream. If cyclists turned up in their hundred or thousands at venues across the country every weekend, they'd sharp change their facilities, they don't and demographic age of the average NT member means they never will, so why should they.
My wife and I visited the gardens at Arcen in the Netherlands a while ago by bike. The cycle parking area is big and it was overflowing. Here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51. ... 48/6.18505. Plenty of cycle parking is usual for similar places in Germany. Britain has almost no utility cycling culture.
I am NOT a cyclist. I enjoy riding a bike for utility, commuting, fitness and touring on tout terrain Rohloff, Brompton M3 and Wester Ross 354 plus a Burley Travoy trailer.
harriedgary
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by harriedgary »

pwa wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 3:50pm
So were the ads directed at, for instance, African nations with poor records on this, rather than the UK?
fair question. I don't honestly know. I would say no, but then politics has infected many organisations, not just the rotting carcass of the tory lying party.
Primarily the ads were meant to jog western minds as to the desirability of acceptance of all, even if you personally don't like their lifestyle. Let others be as long as they don't bother you.

Now that might cause some people to respond, 'well what about all these noisy gay parades that block the high street, that affects me?
Simple. Imagine for the last 200 years let alone 2000 years, that your hetero normative lifestyle had been under constant attack by both society and by laws. That you had to hide your straight sexuality and desire to have a married life and kiddies. Imagine that the taxation and inheritance laws actively disadvantaged you and your partner. i.e if one died, the other doesn't inherit without a fight in court, or you can't transfer some tax allowance between you.

And people in the street spat at you for holding hands with your opposite sex partner. You couldn't have kids naturally but were first rejected from IVF and fertility treatment, then denied the opportunity to adopt. That hotels refused or cancelled bookings from you. That national rail didn't allow you two to have a family railcard. That insurance companies treated you as two separate adults, not a couple. and so on and on and on and on.

Now that's been reality for gay people and couples for a very long time.

Apologies, this is a rant directed at those who want to keep life saving information secret, not at decent honest people

So as laws against them have been relaxed, hardly surprising that they wish to celebrate. The original gay pride march was in America, and not a celebration but a protest against the repeated police attacks and homophobia experienced by gay people there. Imagine been arbitrarily arrested for been gay.

We have a cause célèbre in England. The case of Alan Turing who was arrested, shamed, convicted, castrated and hounded to his early death, for been gay. Who knows how much further he might have taken computing and maths science in the UK if he had survived to be 70 or 80.

My biggest message though right now is about information though. Specifically for and to children

Loads of people are outraged over drag artists reading to children. But it's polarising a debate which then misses the real crux of the matter.
Children do need to hear positive things about the LGBTAQ+ sprectrum for one very very good reason.

To stop them been abused by abusers who thrive in the dark.

Hear me out. If a child feels they are different, and most people who identify as not hetero as adults report having felt different as a child but not been able to articulate it because either they didn't have the understanding, or they were prevented from speaking from fear of repression by parents or society. And that leads to child abuse.

If a child grows up feeling they need to keep quiet about their innermost feelings and thoughts for fear of been wrong, castigated or punished, then they typically develop an aura around them that says

"I'm keeping a secret"

They feel different so tend to avoid others, make fewer friends, and avoid the adults they fear might punish them for their strange thoughts. And abusers pick up on this aura. The abuser senses that that child is a potential victim because abusers need compliant victims who won't ever ever tell. And that's precisely how the child presents, as a victim that won't tell, someone who is keeping secrets, someone who doesn't have confidants. A target that the adult abuser (or older child indeed) believes is safe to abuse without fear of reprisal, without fear of the law.

That is why freedom of information and freedom to be, is so important for children, even on matter such as sexual identity and orientation. To stop them been at risk of abuse. If you (I'm not pointing at you specifically, but the global 'you') if you can't or won't understand and accept this concept that information protects the child, then you're part of the problem.

Indeed I will go as far to say that those behind the virulent attacks on gay and trans rights are probably abusers fearing that their supply of victims risk reducing. Abusers fear information as vampires fear the sunlight. Abusers can't abuse in open sight. They need the cover of darkness to do their evil, the cover of fear and ignorance in their victims.

Gay and trans rights aren't actually then just about the rights of adults, but the protection of the most innocent, the children still developing their sense of the world. Information doesn't and never has caused children to become gay or become trans. Think about that, no really. If information about that does cause that, how illogical is that! You're saying that on the one hand a child chooses to become gay because they see a gay person kissing another, but the repeated stories of gay people been abused doesn't make them think it's a terrible idea to choose to become a marginalised person hated by the puritans and the right.

So that is why we need to be open about all identities. After all, how many people you have seen convicted of abuse or rape, can you honestly say looked like an abuser or rapist? Really? So you can replace the police then, if you claim to be able to see a rapist at 50 yards, well done you. Abusers and rapists have always hidden behind respectability. They've been police, teachers, politicians, lawyers, vicars, shopkeepers, doctors, fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers. They've been beside you and you've never known it, because they do their evil in darkness on victims that don't dare speak out.
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pwa
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by pwa »

harriedgary wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 1:44pm
pwa wrote: 9 Jun 2023, 3:50pm
So were the ads directed at, for instance, African nations with poor records on this, rather than the UK?
fair question. I don't honestly know. I would say no, but then politics has infected many organisations, not just the rotting carcass of the tory lying party.
Primarily the ads were meant to jog western minds as to the desirability of acceptance of all, even if you personally don't like their lifestyle. Let others be as long as they don't bother you.

Now that might cause some people to respond, 'well what about all these noisy gay parades that block the high street, that affects me?
Simple. Imagine for the last 200 years let alone 2000 years, that your hetero normative lifestyle had been under constant attack by both society and by laws. That you had to hide your straight sexuality and desire to have a married life and kiddies. Imagine that the taxation and inheritance laws actively disadvantaged you and your partner. i.e if one died, the other doesn't inherit without a fight in court, or you can't transfer some tax allowance between you.

And people in the street spat at you for holding hands with your opposite sex partner. You couldn't have kids naturally but were first rejected from IVF and fertility treatment, then denied the opportunity to adopt. That hotels refused or cancelled bookings from you. That national rail didn't allow you two to have a family railcard. That insurance companies treated you as two separate adults, not a couple. and so on and on and on and on.

Now that's been reality for gay people and couples for a very long time.

Apologies, this is a rant directed at those who want to keep life saving information secret, not at decent honest people

So as laws against them have been relaxed, hardly surprising that they wish to celebrate. The original gay pride march was in America, and not a celebration but a protest against the repeated police attacks and homophobia experienced by gay people there. Imagine been arbitrarily arrested for been gay.

We have a cause célèbre in England. The case of Alan Turing who was arrested, shamed, convicted, castrated and hounded to his early death, for been gay. Who knows how much further he might have taken computing and maths science in the UK if he had survived to be 70 or 80.

My biggest message though right now is about information though. Specifically for and to children

Loads of people are outraged over drag artists reading to children. But it's polarising a debate which then misses the real crux of the matter.
Children do need to hear positive things about the LGBTAQ+ sprectrum for one very very good reason.

To stop them been abused by abusers who thrive in the dark.

Hear me out. If a child feels they are different, and most people who identify as not hetero as adults report having felt different as a child but not been able to articulate it because either they didn't have the understanding, or they were prevented from speaking from fear of repression by parents or society. And that leads to child abuse.

If a child grows up feeling they need to keep quiet about their innermost feelings and thoughts for fear of been wrong, castigated or punished, then they typically develop an aura around them that says

"I'm keeping a secret"

They feel different so tend to avoid others, make fewer friends, and avoid the adults they fear might punish them for their strange thoughts. And abusers pick up on this aura. The abuser senses that that child is a potential victim because abusers need compliant victims who won't ever ever tell. And that's precisely how the child presents, as a victim that won't tell, someone who is keeping secrets, someone who doesn't have confidants. A target that the adult abuser (or older child indeed) believes is safe to abuse without fear of reprisal, without fear of the law.

That is why freedom of information and freedom to be, is so important for children, even on matter such as sexual identity and orientation. To stop them been at risk of abuse. If you (I'm not pointing at you specifically, but the global 'you') if you can't or won't understand and accept this concept that information protects the child, then you're part of the problem.

Indeed I will go as far to say that those behind the virulent attacks on gay and trans rights are probably abusers fearing that their supply of victims risk reducing. Abusers fear information as vampires fear the sunlight. Abusers can't abuse in open sight. They need the cover of darkness to do their evil, the cover of fear and ignorance in their victims.

Gay and trans rights aren't actually then just about the rights of adults, but the protection of the most innocent, the children still developing their sense of the world. Information doesn't and never has caused children to become gay or become trans. Think about that, no really. If information about that does cause that, how illogical is that! You're saying that on the one hand a child chooses to become gay because they see a gay person kissing another, but the repeated stories of gay people been abused doesn't make them think it's a terrible idea to choose to become a marginalised person hated by the puritans and the right.

So that is why we need to be open about all identities. After all, how many people you have seen convicted of abuse or rape, can you honestly say looked like an abuser or rapist? Really? So you can replace the police then, if you claim to be able to see a rapist at 50 yards, well done you. Abusers and rapists have always hidden behind respectability. They've been police, teachers, politicians, lawyers, vicars, shopkeepers, doctors, fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers. They've been beside you and you've never known it, because they do their evil in darkness on victims that don't dare speak out.
You are preaching to the converted. We brought our kids up to treat all people with kindness, regardless of their ethnicity, sexual orientation or whatever. My son is gay and that is absolutely fine. I just wonder why Oxfam are campaigning on this issue, which seems to me to be outside their normal area of activity. Are there other important causes and concerns, like animal rights or domestic abuse, that they will be campaigning about next? Or will the RSPCA be campaigning on race equality? These are charities aimed at particular issues and for the sake of clarity and focus they would be best sticking to their own areas of concern. After all, we the punters can support and listen to numerous charities at the same time, covering a portfolio of issues we are concerned about. We don't need Oxfam to be a do-it-all charity covering every single issue for us.
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by Tangled Metal »

harriedgary wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 1:44pm Imagine that the taxation and inheritance laws actively disadvantaged you and your partner. i.e if one died, the other doesn't inherit without a fight in court, or you can't transfer some tax allowance between you.
I know this part is only a minor section of your long list of grievances as a member of LGTBQA++ but it struck a chord of resonance with me. Unmarried with long term partner, young child and don't agree with marriage. So far we have to set up extra legal instruments to get our house in joint name, wills, various other legal instruments just to get us to the point that if one of us dies the other gets the rights a married couple gets pretty much automatically.

Note I'm not claiming equivalency just that I didn't think I had that commonality with your community even if only on our choice related matter as us not getting married for a principle. I find that interesting me some reason.
harriedgary
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by harriedgary »

pwa wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 3:07pm I just wonder why Oxfam are campaigning on this issue, which seems to me to be outside their normal area of activity. Are there other important causes and concerns, like animal rights or domestic abuse, that they will be campaigning about next? Or will the RSPCA be campaigning on race equality? These are charities aimed at particular issues and for the sake of clarity and focus they would be best sticking to their own areas of concern. After all, we the punters can support and listen to numerous charities at the same time, covering a portfolio of issues we are concerned about. We don't need Oxfam to be a do-it-all charity covering every single issue for us.
I'm curious, what do you think Oxfam is about? We all know it stood for Oxford Famine Relief when first set up. But many years later we see the broader picture - the teach a person to fish rather than just give them a fish or two.
People who are marginalised for one thing - such as sexuality - will then inevitably experience poverty, which leads to hunger. That's not hyperbole, not some theoretical fanciful thinking. By campaigning about LGBTQIA+ rights, Oxfam are indeed working at just one of the many causes of hunger. Clearly climate change is another, as is war and refugee displacement, or international corporate malfeasance. When some international chemical, mining or other company leaves a ship load of hazardous waste to leak into a local water source, that causes hunger, as the water becomes unusable, and so fields can't be watered, or no one can tend to them.

So LGBTQIA+ rights are Oxfam's concern very much so. Or waste in effect donations by only feeding a starving unemployed gay/lesbian/trans person, and ignore that they are unemployed due to stigma.

Does cycle uk only stick to rights of cyclists as they cycle down the road, or widen the remit to consider air pollution, road design, laws, education in schools, representation in parliament, etc etc.
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cycle tramp
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by cycle tramp »

harriedgary wrote: 20 Jun 2023, 1:44pm
So that is why we need to be open about all identities.
Damn....... Do we? .... Well okay, here goes.....I'm cycle tramp and I'm a grump ole b@$t@&d... there, its out.
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plancashire
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Re: The National Trust: one small step for man, one giant car park for mankind.

Post by plancashire »

I prefer focussed organisations which do their one or two things well. My views and beliefs generally don't fit a do-it-all outfit. While I enjoy some National Trust visits, I miss a greater diversity of history. As an antidote to country houses visit Mr Straw's house in Worksop. It is 1/2 mile from a rail station. It even has cycle routing information!

Link: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/ ... raws-house
I am NOT a cyclist. I enjoy riding a bike for utility, commuting, fitness and touring on tout terrain Rohloff, Brompton M3 and Wester Ross 354 plus a Burley Travoy trailer.
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