Roads you would not ride on.

For discussions within the Cycle Training profession.
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pjclinch
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by pjclinch »

Pinhead wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 9:21am
pjclinch wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 12:36pm
Pinhead wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 7:37pm Perhaps it should be law that all new learner drivers spend a week on a cycle test
We're drifting off topic, but there's nothing particularly poor about the basic idea of cycle training as part of driving training. One gets to understand both the basic priorities and how the roads work at low speed, and one gets to understand what it's like to negotiate the roads uninsulated from harm by a steel cage.
I believe so as being a cyclist means I KNOW what we need and drive accordingly
It's good to be careful about terms like "we" and "I KNOW"...
Lots of cyclists and lots of very different contexts to cycle in: what you need in your context is not necessarily true of others (this underpins a big problem with promoting "vehicular cycling" as a panacea, the "if I can do this no problem then so can you" fallacy).

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
fastpedaller
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by fastpedaller »

pjclinch wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 12:36pm
Pinhead wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 7:37pm Perhaps it should be law that all new learner drivers spend a week on a cycle test
We're drifting off topic, but there's nothing particularly poor about the basic idea of cycle training as part of driving training. One gets to understand both the basic priorities and how the roads work at low speed, and one gets to understand what it's like to negotiate the roads uninsulated from harm by a steel cage.

Pete.
40 + years ago when I was learning to drive, the instructor taught me how to operate the clutch and we were away. After a mile of so he said "have you driven before?" I replied in the negative. A couple of miles on he said "you seem to be placing yourself correctly on the road and you have good hazard awareness - you must have driven at some time". I then told him I ride a bike. There were a couple of occasions when he said "you're not on the bike now, we can go faster", but one that stands out was when he said "don't wait for the bus, he could be there a while, just go past." I commented that they often pull away from the bus stop without signalling. The next time the situation occurred I went past as the bus then came out nearly into the side of the car, having given no signal of course. He didn't comment. Seemed like a nice guy, and it has to be said he did believe in teaching pupils to drive, not just pass the test. he just didn't ride a bike :lol:
axel_knutt
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by axel_knutt »

pjclinch wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 12:36pm
Pinhead wrote: 24 Jul 2023, 7:37pm Perhaps it should be law that all new learner drivers spend a week on a cycle test
We're drifting off topic, but there's nothing particularly poor about the basic idea of cycle training as part of driving training. One gets to understand both the basic priorities and how the roads work at low speed, and one gets to understand what it's like to negotiate the roads uninsulated from harm by a steel cage.

Pete.
I've been advocating this for several years now on Twitter, to a pretty much deaf audience.

83% of cyclists drive, but only 30% of motorists cycle, leaving the balance of ignorance all one-sided, so it's not really surprising that cyclists make safer drivers.
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Cycle Drive.png
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Some are making some headway though:
https://twitter.com/Sir_Labz/status/1512722575876575243
https://twitter.com/KatjaKircher/status ... 3666880519
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
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pjclinch
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by pjclinch »

fastpedaller wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 12:05pm
40 + years ago when I was learning to drive, the instructor taught me how to operate the clutch and we were away. After a mile of so he said "have you driven before?" I replied in the negative. A couple of miles on he said "you seem to be placing yourself correctly on the road and you have good hazard awareness - you must have driven at some time". I then told him I ride a bike. There were a couple of occasions when he said "you're not on the bike now, we can go faster", but one that stands out was when he said "don't wait for the bus, he could be there a while, just go past." I commented that they often pull away from the bus stop without signalling. The next time the situation occurred I went past as the bus then came out nearly into the side of the car, having given no signal of course. He didn't comment. Seemed like a nice guy, and it has to be said he did believe in teaching pupils to drive, not just pass the test. he just didn't ride a bike :lol:
My daughter has had some driving lessons lately, and reported that she'd had good feedback from her instructor on her basic road sense.

My dad told me he had elicited some criticism from his driving instructor from his two-wheeled habits though, as the car obstinately refused to corner when he didn't do much with the wheel and leaned over in the driver's seat...

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Nearholmer
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by Nearholmer »

There might be something to be said for making cycling on the road a preliminary to the driving test, although care would be needed around people who physically can’t cycle, and to prevent whatever cycling proficiency was needed as an entry to driver training becoming a ‘cycling test’ that then got applied as a preliminary to cycling.

Whatever the case, I’m sure I benefitted from going bike > motorbike > car, because the first two sure as heck make you “road aware” - I’m sure that passing each of motorbike and car tests first time was down to what I’d done before. Car I found quite difficult to learn, oddly, because it took ages to get used to the sense of detachment from the vehicle, including it not cornering when I leant over.
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pjclinch
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by pjclinch »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 1:30pm There might be something to be said for making cycling on the road a preliminary to the driving test, although care would be needed around people who physically can’t cycle, and to prevent whatever cycling proficiency was needed as an entry to driver training becoming a ‘cycling test’ that then got applied as a preliminary to cycling.
Good point about the unintended side effects of having a test...

Bikeability doesn't have a pass/fail, just an acknowledgement that you've taken the course. A while since I've seen the Bikeability ones, but Bikeability Scotland (a similar course but not the same) certificates have "traffic light" descriptions for different aspects of the course (Green, "Achieved – Well done! You have achieved the outcome and are performing it independently"; Amber, "Working towards – Good work! You are making progress towards achieving this outcome"; Red, "Not completed – This outcome has not been undertaken during your Bikeability Scotland training") and instructors are encouraged to provide notes so the student and their carers can get some sort of idea what the certificate really means (ranging down to report-speak for "X really shouldn't be allowed out on the roads by themselves").

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
axel_knutt
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by axel_knutt »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 1:30pm There might be something to be said for making cycling on the road a preliminary to the driving test, although care would be needed around people who physically can’t cycle, and to prevent whatever cycling proficiency was needed as an entry to driver training becoming a ‘cycling test’ that then got applied as a preliminary to cycling.
There are plenty of disability bikes, e-Bikes for the unfit, and doctors certificates for the rest. I would have a tamper-proof GPS-based unit mounted on the bike, linked to a tamper-proof RFID band on the rider, I don't see any other way to prevent cheating the system. I suppose you could mount the GPS directly on the rider if it can tell the difference between walking, cycling and driving, but I think people would complain that they look like offender tags.

Then you have a system that allocates points on a scale, with most earned for cycling on a congested road in the rush hour, and none at all for riding round the park on a Sunday afternoon, or possibly even allocate points in proportion to the accident rate for the road. Perhaps set the target points at the equivalent of 2 months spent commuting in rush hour traffic.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Nearholmer
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by Nearholmer »

The smart thing might be to add an entry module to driver training, beyond which nobody can progress until they’ve passed, called “ road awareness”, which required the display of knowledge and practical competence as a pedestrian and on a bike, that way it would be harder to “back creep” it as a cycling test. Even a wheelchair user could be included by adjusting the exact content.

Still, all but a dream.
Jdsk
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 3:49pm The smart thing might be to add an entry module to driver training, beyond which nobody can progress until they’ve passed, called “ road awareness”, which required the display of knowledge and practical competence as a pedestrian and on a bike, that way it would be harder to “back creep” it as a cycling test. Even a wheelchair user could be included by adjusting the exact content.

Still, all but a dream.
People are often surprised at the absence of evidence of benefit from driver education. (I've posted this before but happy to do so again.)

But this thread is now showing some convergence with Graduated Driver Licensing...

Jonathan
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by Bmblbzzz »

pjclinch wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 9:52am
Pinhead wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 9:21am
pjclinch wrote: 25 Jul 2023, 12:36pm

We're drifting off topic, but there's nothing particularly poor about the basic idea of cycle training as part of driving training. One gets to understand both the basic priorities and how the roads work at low speed, and one gets to understand what it's like to negotiate the roads uninsulated from harm by a steel cage.
I believe so as being a cyclist means I KNOW what we need and drive accordingly
It's good to be careful about terms like "we" and "I KNOW"...
Lots of cyclists and lots of very different contexts to cycle in: what you need in your context is not necessarily true of others (this underpins a big problem with promoting "vehicular cycling" as a panacea, the "if I can do this no problem then so can you" fallacy).

Pete.
There's a well known phrase "the arrogance of certainty" usually employed in philosophical, religious or scientific contexts, but just as applicable to daily life. I've also seen a longer version of it "Certainty is hubris and arrogance masquerading as discernment". The certainty that all cyclists need the same thing that I need does smack of ignoring individual needs and intentions, which might make for an spicy debate but on the road can lead to blood and bones.
S68
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by S68 »

Roads I would not ride on? All roads (excluding those with wide cycle lanes) between 7am-7pm.
Mike Sales
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by Mike Sales »

S68 wrote: 23 Sep 2023, 8:42pm Roads I would not ride on? All roads (excluding those with wide cycle lanes) between 7am-7pm.
What scares you? The drivers? I am unsurprised given your attitude to driving.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
S68
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by S68 »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Sep 2023, 8:54pm What scares you? The drivers? I am unsurprised given your attitude to driving.
I wouldn't say I'm scared but I don't really like being in such close proximity to moving vehicles when the volume of vehicles has increased so much over the years. I also don't like the feeling in my mind that I'm in peoples' way and slowing everyone down. If I was to become a peak hours road cyclist again (which is highly unlikely) I think I would revert back to old school rules and use the pavements more as they're huge in my area. I would dismount or slow down for pedestrians and take a chance that the local plod don't care about such trivial "offences".
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pjclinch
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by pjclinch »

S68 wrote: 24 Sep 2023, 2:45am
Mike Sales wrote: 23 Sep 2023, 8:54pm What scares you? The drivers? I am unsurprised given your attitude to driving.
I wouldn't say I'm scared but I don't really like being in such close proximity to moving vehicles when the volume of vehicles has increased so much over the years. I also don't like the feeling in my mind that I'm in peoples' way and slowing everyone down. If I was to become a peak hours road cyclist again (which is highly unlikely) I think I would revert back to old school rules and use the pavements more as they're huge in my area. I would dismount or slow down for pedestrians and take a chance that the local plod don't care about such trivial "offences".
Pavement cycling is another case of perceptions of safety not really matching reality.
Danger is from collisions and they tend to happen at right-of-way conflicts (i.e., junctions), and if you're using pavements you have far more of them on a typical route than you do if you stick to the roads.
(This is why cycle paths by roads that don't keep the same priority as the road they parallel are quite typically not worth using and are deprecated in the latest design manuals like LTN 1/20 and Cycling By Design).

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
mattheus
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Re: Roads you would not ride on.

Post by mattheus »

Mike Sales wrote: 23 Sep 2023, 8:54pm
S68 wrote: 23 Sep 2023, 8:42pm Roads I would not ride on? All roads (excluding those with wide cycle lanes) between 7am-7pm.
What scares you? The drivers? I am unsurprised given your attitude to driving.
Indeed!

Luckily, very few drivers of my acquaintance seem to share S68's approach to car use.
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