Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pjclinch
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

Post by pjclinch »

horizon wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 4:15pm
pjclinch wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 9:06am
Not much details of the waterproofing layer, but I'd bet at least small amounts of money it is breathable,
Do you mean by accident or by design (i.e. the fabric)? What I read into Altura's blurb is that it isn't but not to worry as we have lots of vents and mesh.
Pretty much nobody is making waterproof clothes out of non-breathable materials bar stuff like your actual plastic mac, caver's boiler suits etc. Vents are good, mesh is at least perceived to be good, but you'd have to go out of your way to find coats without some breathable coating or membrane. That market just doesn't exist any more.
horizon wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 4:15pm It seems as though you are saying that I need to wear less.
I'm giving you possible explanations as to why your base and mid layers weren't dry despite a notionally breathable shell. That's not because you're doing something wrong, though you may want to change tactics.
horizon wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 4:15pm This might be true but AIUI it then becomes a choice between staying warm or staying dry.
If you're a profuse sweater at almost any exertion level then you'll be wet, but there again in that case you'll be soaking even without the rain and without the waterproof. Whatever happens you'll be at least as wet from sweat as on a similarly warm dry day.

For most people serious clothes-soaking sweat is your body cooling itself, typically because of exertion. If you're exerting yourself enough to sweat quite a bit anyway then you'll be wet anyway (just as you would without the rain and the coat) but as long as you keep going you'll be warm enough.

At lower levels of exertion there's a balance between being warm enough not to shiver (the body's way of heating itself up) and cool enough not to sweat much (its way of cooling itself down). Careful layering and venting can help get you nearer the balance point (the most effective vents are hampered by the best way of letting warm, moist air out are also the best way of letting rain in...).
horizon wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 4:15pm Some people are saying that design is more imprtant than fabric. This seems to be saying that wearing practice is also more important than fabric (even if some fabrics are better than others).
This is very much the case (and add cut and fit to design). In fact the main group of people not saying this are probably marketing departments, because it's their job to convince you that a top of the line SuperDuperTex jacket will as good as stop you sweating...
horizon wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 4:15pm Not getting over-heated on the way up a mountain and keeping your top layers in reserve was always drummed into me and I hope I'm open to advice re good practice. But it does open up the debate on Gore-Tex a little.
I wouldn't say "top layers in reserve", I'd say hard shell in reserve, because the limitations of hard shells means they're easy to "out-sweat", and the more you use them as general coats the less well they work (mainly through DWR degradation) when you need them. A windproof/soft shell top layer can often be deployed right from the off.

I don't think there's any particular debate about Goretex, it's just one of many breathable/waterproof fabrics that share similar limitations, and being less perfect than their marketing suggests means that knowing how and why they're imperfect can help you get the most out of them, and/or not be unduly disappointed when e.g. you get wet on a wet day even though your clothes are "guaranteed to keep you dry" (that's Gore's trademarked term, but other vendors are just as capable of utter tosh).

Good practice is anything that means you have an acceptable time of it, and as long as you're not actively miserable then getting at least a bit wet in the rain ought to be acceptable, just as still having a sweaty top when you go for a run despite it being a miracle wicking moisture control fabric is acceptable.

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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

Post by PH »

pjclinch wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 6:50pm Pretty much nobody is making waterproof clothes out of non-breathable materials bar stuff like your actual plastic mac, caver's boiler suits etc. Vents are good, mesh is at least perceived to be good, but you'd have to go out of your way to find coats without some breathable coating or membrane. That market just doesn't exist any more.
If Horizon's Altura jacket is made from a breathable fabric, it makes no sense for them not to highlight that as they do for other jackets, they even have a symbol for it.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pjclinch wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 6:50pmthe most effective vents are hampered by the best way of letting warm, moist air out are also the best way of letting rain in...
I have a Madison branded jacket that has what seem to me to be the ideal venting for cycling*, There are small underam & rear yoke vents to let air out (& help prevent "ballooning" of the jackets). Plus there are vent zips on the underside of the lower arms - so they are always facing down & allow a controlled amount of air to flow up the sleeves (I find I tend to get sweaty arms if I don't have ventilation or have the same amount of insulation as on my core during activitiy. You can spot me in a group of cyclists - I'll be the one in short sleeves & 3/4s or long bottoms when everyone else is in long sleeves & shorts!)

*not currently being worn as the main zip has broken - it jammed while I was wearing it & I couldn't get out of the jacket without breaking teeth on the zip. I'm considering getting a new zip put in (probably by Alpkit) as the rest of the jacket is in good condition.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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PH wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 7:19pm
pjclinch wrote: 20 Nov 2023, 6:50pm Pretty much nobody is making waterproof clothes out of non-breathable materials bar stuff like your actual plastic mac, caver's boiler suits etc. Vents are good, mesh is at least perceived to be good, but you'd have to go out of your way to find coats without some breathable coating or membrane. That market just doesn't exist any more.
If Horizon's Altura jacket is made from a breathable fabric, it makes no sense for them not to highlight that as they do for other jackets, they even have a symbol for it.
That jacket is described as having "waterproof technology" which is further described under "Discover" as having a "hydrophobic coating" which is a typical description for a breathable/waterproof coating.

Looking further at the site and browsing around the various jacket descriptions I would say the "10/10 Waterproof and Breathability" is almost certainly a ~10K mm hydrostatic head and a 10K g/m²/24 hrs breathability rating, not a "perfect 10" and this seems to be a pretty much a standard spec for a no/generic-name waterproof/breathable fabric.

We are looking at a website which is in the hands of marketing people. Sense and maximally useful information are not to be expected of them!

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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

Post by pwa »

When cycling we generate our own heat, as we all know very well, so when we start off we should anticipate a heat build-up and dress for it. If I am wearing a jacket made with Goretex I will start off with insufficient clothing underneath the jacket to feel completely warm enough standing beside the bike. But when I get going I will get up to a comfortable temperature within a few minutes, possibly putting in a spell of extra effort to get to that point quicker. I'd certainly never allow myself to bake inside a jacket whilst wearing some excess clothing layer that could easily come off and be stored in the bag. So even on a chilly autumn day, I could have just a very thin vest and short sleeve shirt under a jacket, if I expect to be wearing the jacket a lot that day, with an extra layer stowed in the bag just in case.

Having said all that, I'd still expect to get a little bit damp inside a jacket, Goretex or not, vented or not. And so long as I'm not baking or cold, I'm okay with that. I used to do a lot of running and could get hot and sweaty in the thinnest of running vests, so how could any jacket prevent that? I'd get damp on a warm, dry day if I cycled nude! But I have had budget and expensive jackets and have found the ones with better membranes (Goretex and other brands) end up with me a bit more comfortable on long rides.

It should also be noted that it isn't always a choice between Goretex (or equivalent) and venting. You can have both in one jacket. I am looking at my Rab (with Goretex) hiking coat now, and it has long pit zips. My cycling jacket is also Goretex and that, too, has pit zips. And both garments, of course, allow for venting through having the front zip partly undone. I think there may be a problem with some cycling jackets that are too tailored and close fitting to allow air to move around between body and jacket. I have always avoided a very close fit for that reason. I know I would cook inside a garment like that. But that is a problem with the cut of the garment, rather than the membrane used.
Last edited by pwa on 21 Nov 2023, 8:29am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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Pit zips are pretty much a standard in high end mountaineering shells and have been for over 20 years now. There have been dalliances with "better" systems, such as core vents on the main body which are better as vents compared to pit zips because warm, moist air goes up... but the point about your armpits is they don't get that much rain in them! So core vents work better when it's not raining, but taking your shell off altogether when it's not raining works much better than a core vent!

When eVent first hit the market the marketing cobblers was it was so breathable you'd soon realise pit zips were now redundant and a sign of an inadequate main fabric. Climbers were sceptical and it wasn't long before you could get eVent jackets with pit zips...
Rohan spent a fair bit of marketing copy on saying why the core vents in their "Pinnacle" Barricade jacket were vastly better than pit zips, a few top of the range jackets later and their current top-of-the-line has... pit zips.

They are imperfect and add to cost, bulk and weight, but IME they make a genuinely useful difference over the course of several hours in the rain.

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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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I've just been looking at my best cycling waterproof jacket, to see what the labels say, and it actually isn't Goretex. Which shows how little attention I pay to the branding on membranes these days. It is an old Endura garment with "PTFE protection". It does keep the rain out very effectively. It has pit zips, which I keep open most of the time. And it still breathes, after a lot of use and not much washing. I know that because I just raised a section to my lips and blew some warm breath through it. I could feel the warmth coming out of the other side. It is made with the more expensive construction, with no mesh liner, so the membrane is sandwiched between bonded fabric. And it is semi-tailored, so it isn't a shapeless sack but it does have space all around.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pwa wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 9:36am I've just been looking at my best cycling waterproof jacket, to see what the labels say, and it actually isn't Goretex. Which shows how little attention I pay to the branding on membranes these days. It is an old Endura garment with "PTFE protection". It does keep the rain out very effectively. It has pit zips, which I keep open most of the time. And it still breathes, after a lot of use and not much washing. I know that because I just raised a section to my lips and blew some warm breath through it. I could feel the warmth coming out of the other side. It is made with the more expensive construction, with no mesh liner, so the membrane is sandwiched between bonded fabric. And it is semi-tailored, so it isn't a shapeless sack but it does have space all around.
I would say that's one to go back and check your methodology (perhaps use a visual indicator of air movement like a saucer of water, or an objective temperature sensor like a thermometer held away from the fabric to avoid conduction?)

A hard shell should be effectively windproof, and if you can blow straight through it then it isn't. And if it isn't windproof chances of it being waterproof are remarkably low. If you're not getting wet it's probably waterproof, so I'm wondering about your test...

Note that "breathing" in waterproof/breathable fabrics is significantly often not just air blowing through holes (eVent and NeoShell are arguable exceptions, I guess there are others) which is why the somewhat abstruse unit g of water per m² of fabric per 24 hours is used, while air permeability is typically measured in volume/area/time, e.g. the "CFM" measure which is cubic feet (per square foot) per minute. That doesn't work with the likes of Goretex because it's just about airtight (yes, it's microporous, but there's the PU layer over the pores to keep them clean), but with interactions I'm not going to pretend I understand water vapour can be shifted through a membrane/coating in other ways if there is vapour pressure across it (not the same as air pressure, I think typically driven by temperature gradients, but again I'm not going to pretend I really understand this).

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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pjclinch wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 1:39am
That jacket is described as having "waterproof technology" which is further described under "Discover" as having a "hydrophobic coating" which is a typical description for a breathable/waterproof coating.

Pete.
I had previously clicked on that link but nothing happened (I'm on the desktop) so that probably explains a lot! The other two links didn't work either.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pjclinch wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 1:39am We are looking at a website which is in the hands of marketing people. Sense and maximally useful information are not to be expected of them!
Pete.
That's why I'm skeptical, they're not marketing a feature when it would be an advantage to do so. It's not like they're not aware of that advantage, as they demonstrate in descriptions of other jackets. I'm not saying your theory is wrong, neither am I going to assume something is breathable unless it's being marketed as such.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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PH wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 1:57pm
pjclinch wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 1:39am We are looking at a website which is in the hands of marketing people. Sense and maximally useful information are not to be expected of them!
That's why I'm skeptical, they're not marketing a feature when it would be an advantage to do so. It's not like they're not aware of that advantage, as they demonstrate in descriptions of other jackets. I'm not saying your theory is wrong, neither am I going to assume something is breathable unless it's being marketed as such.
It's either being marketed as "10/10" breathable or 10K g/m²/24hrs breathable and has a blurb starting "A HIGHLY VISIBLE WATERPROOF, BREATHABLE JACKET DESIGNED TO SUIT THE NEEDS OF THE URBAN COMMUTER".
I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest they're not calling that one as "Breathable"!

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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pjclinch wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 10:57am
pwa wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 9:36am I've just been looking at my best cycling waterproof jacket, to see what the labels say, and it actually isn't Goretex. Which shows how little attention I pay to the branding on membranes these days. It is an old Endura garment with "PTFE protection". It does keep the rain out very effectively. It has pit zips, which I keep open most of the time. And it still breathes, after a lot of use and not much washing. I know that because I just raised a section to my lips and blew some warm breath through it. I could feel the warmth coming out of the other side. It is made with the more expensive construction, with no mesh liner, so the membrane is sandwiched between bonded fabric. And it is semi-tailored, so it isn't a shapeless sack but it does have space all around.
I would say that's one to go back and check your methodology (perhaps use a visual indicator of air movement like a saucer of water, or an objective temperature sensor like a thermometer held away from the fabric to avoid conduction?)....
I have just tried it again and though it is subtle, I think I can detect warm air from my breath getting through. This is with the fabric pressed to my mouth to create a seal, and with me blowing to create a rise in pressure on the mouth side of the fabric. The fabric bulges with the pressure of the air and my hand on the other side, in a cool room, can detect warmth. I think that means a small amount of air is passing through, under pressure. Under normal use you wouldn't get such difference in pressure from one side of the fabric to the other, so of course normal wind would hardly get through. And I'm pretty sure the garment still keeps the rain out. Try it one one of your garments and see what you think.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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pjclinch wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 2:51pm It's either being marketed as "10/10" breathable or 10K g/m²/24hrs breathable and has a blurb starting "A HIGHLY VISIBLE WATERPROOF, BREATHABLE JACKET DESIGNED TO SUIT THE NEEDS OF THE URBAN COMMUTER".
I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest they're not calling that one as "Breathable"!
Pete.
One jacket says "high levels of breathability through strategically placed vents and an inner mesh lining"
Another says "a 10k / 10k waterproof fabric that also offers excellent breathability to prevent overheating."

Altura have a symbol on the product page to indicate breathable technology, it's on the second but absent from the first.
I don't think questioning you theory is stretching anything.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

The Altura Nevis Waterproof Jacket has been designed to provide all weather protection with the needs of the commuter in mind. Featuring a fully waterproof design, the Nevis Jacket also offers high levels of breathability through strategically placed vents and an inner mesh lining to keep you comfortable on the go.

The relaxed fit and subtle reflectivity ensures this jacket can double up as a cycling jacket or a go to waterproof jacket for everyday use.
https://www.altura.co.uk/products/altur ... ens-jacket

It does seem they're marketing the jacket as being breathable, but not the fabric.
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Re: Gore-Tex: is it really this bad?

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PH wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 4:10pm
pjclinch wrote: 21 Nov 2023, 2:51pm It's either being marketed as "10/10" breathable or 10K g/m²/24hrs breathable and has a blurb starting "A HIGHLY VISIBLE WATERPROOF, BREATHABLE JACKET DESIGNED TO SUIT THE NEEDS OF THE URBAN COMMUTER".
I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest they're not calling that one as "Breathable"!
Pete.
One jacket says "high levels of breathability through strategically placed vents and an inner mesh lining"
Another says "a 10k / 10k waterproof fabric that also offers excellent breathability to prevent overheating."

Altura have a symbol on the product page to indicate breathable technology, it's on the second but absent from the first.
I don't think questioning you theory is stretching anything.
Have a look at the Ladies' version (https://www.altura.co.uk/products/altur ... ens-jacket), which is marked with your "Breathable Technology" marker.
It's a cock-up from Altura.

Pete.
Last edited by pjclinch on 21 Nov 2023, 9:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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