Why does Trump lie so much?

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UpWrong
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by UpWrong »

pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:25am
UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 8:08am
pete75 wrote: 11 Feb 2024, 10:02pm
Looking at a chart of European nation's defence expenditure, it's noticeable that a lot of the lowest spenders aren't very far away from Russia. The Baltics spend very little , as do almost all the former Warsaw pact countries bar Poland. How convenient for his pal Mr Putin. We should be OK as would be France, Germany, Spain and Italy, along with the Poles and the Dutch, all spending over 15 billion dollars a year.

The EU will obviously be planning a powerful military. When Trump wins his second term the US may well pull out of NATO and Britain will more than likely follow.
Wrong and wrong. See https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014 ... 023-en.pdf
2022 Expenditure. Note how much Britain, France Germany etc spend on defence and how little countries like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc spend.

Capexpend.JPG
That's ignoring GDP and the NATO threshold is with reference to GDP.
djnotts
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Location: Nottingham

Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by djnotts »

^ ".....and how little countries like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc spend."

Proportional spend surely a more relevant measure? Hardly big, rich, countries? Russian rule make little day-to-day difference to the majority of the population?
Pebble
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Pebble »

I'm sure when trump was banging on about this last time he was focusing on the 2% of GDP.

It is the only measure that can be reasonably used, if all 30 members had to contribute 1/30, then little Iceland would be paying 876 x as much per head of population the the US.

But this is not about who is paying what, its Trumps wish to encourage russia to bomb nato members who are not paying there fair share, that has buckled my wheel
UpWrong
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by UpWrong »

Pebble wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:51am But this is not about who is paying what, its Trumps wish to encourage russia to bomb nato members who are not paying there fair share, that has buckled my wheel
What Trump said was outrageous and irresponsible. Here's what Nikki Haley had to say on the matter, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-68269820

Let's hope somehow she gets the nomination.
Pebble
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Pebble »

UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 11:33am
Pebble wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:51am But this is not about who is paying what, its Trumps wish to encourage russia to bomb nato members who are not paying there fair share, that has buckled my wheel
What Trump said was outrageous and irresponsible. Here's what Nikki Haley had to say on the matter, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-68269820

Let's hope somehow she gets the nomination.
she has been my choice for a while, shes seems intelligent, considered and thoughtful, but like all politicians there is plenty of things she says that are not for me, but considering the current choice she is the best candidate by a country mile.
Sadly though there is little hope, apparently she has been pushing hard for a one on one debate with trump for the up coming caucuses, seemingly high up generals in the republican party are now doing all they can to shut her up.

(i suppose 9/11 is after september 10th)
Psamathe
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Psamathe »

Re: NATO Countries and Military Budgets:
I'm no expert on NATO nor enforcement of treaties but my understanding is that the expenditure Trump is getting so uptight about is the expectation on member countries own military budgets/expenditure. Not a fee for membership, not something a country pays for security to be provided by others to be a member as Trump seems to be making out. I would say it's worrying Trump doesn't understand NATO and national military expenditure but he's got lots of expert advisers so maybe it's me that doesn't understand it?

I understood the expectation is military expenditure as a %age of GDP and GDP can change a lot faster than military budgets/expenditure.

I would also have expected somebody seeking high office be capable of taking a balanced reasonable approach so at best any candidate would be talking more about starting to enforce treaty obligations or even to update treaty provisions.

Ian
pete75
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by pete75 »

UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 8:08am
pete75 wrote: 11 Feb 2024, 10:02pm
djnotts wrote: 11 Feb 2024, 8:25am More worrying when he is probably telling the truth:

"Donald Trump has said he would "encourage" Russia to attack any Nato member that fails to pay its bills as part of the Western military alliance.

At a rally on Saturday, he said he had once told a leader he would not protect a nation behind on its payments, and would "encourage" the aggressors to "do whatever the hell they want"." (BBC News)
...
Looking at a chart of European nation's defence expenditure, it's noticeable that a lot of the lowest spenders aren't very far away from Russia. The Baltics spend very little , as do almost all the former Warsaw pact countries bar Poland. How convenient for his pal Mr Putin. We should be OK as would be France, Germany, Spain and Italy, along with the Poles and the Dutch, all spending over 15 billion dollars a year.

The EU will obviously be planning a powerful military. When Trump wins his second term the US may well pull out of NATO and Britain will more than likely follow.
Wrong and wrong, at least with regards to the 2% of GDP threshold. See https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014 ... 023-en.pdf

EDIT: Regarding UK membership of NATO. Clearly we wouldn't want to go it alone so I suspect we would remain a member of NATO as long as it provided us with adequate security. If Trump trashes NATO then clearly a European alternative would be desirable and I wouldn't expect that to be an EU-members only club.
If the USA pulled out of Nato then the UK would follow like the good little poodle it is.
Do you really think the EU nations would trust the UK as part of any new alliance?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by pete75 »

UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:30am
pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:25am

2022 Expenditure. Note how much Britain, France Germany etc spend on defence and how little countries like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc spend.

Capexpend.JPG
That's ignoring GDP and the NATO threshold is with reference to GDP.
When it comes to buying weaponry, it's the total spend that's important not the percentage of GDP.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Psamathe
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Psamathe »

pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:42pm
UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:30am
pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:25am

2022 Expenditure. Note how much Britain, France Germany etc spend on defence and how little countries like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania etc spend.

Capexpend.JPG
That's ignoring GDP and the NATO threshold is with reference to GDP.
When it comes to buying weaponry, it's the total spend that's important not the percentage of GDP.
Where is this 2% or rather what is it 2% of? Or is buying weaponry a different parts of required expenditure (above 2%).

Ian
UpWrong
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by UpWrong »

pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:34pm If the USA pulled out of Nato then the UK would follow like the good little poodle it is.
Do you really think the EU nations would trust the UK as part of any new alliance?
Rubbish. We'd continue to work with the Canadians, the Australians and the New Zealanders. Of course there's trust with our european partners when it comes to defence. France does like to be top dog though when it comes to Europe but we can live with that.
Psamathe
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Psamathe »

pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:34pm ....
If the USA pulled out of Nato then the UK would follow like the good little poodle it is.
Do you really think the EU nations would trust the UK as part of any new alliance?
I wonder if we would still be the good puppy dog if it were Trump holding the lead? Given Biden (or whoever Republican candidate turns out to be) is unlikely to pull US out of NATO we are really considering Trump and UK continuing to blindly follow his personal agenda.

ian
Nearholmer
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Nearholmer »

How’s about a bizarre option: invite Russia to join NATO.
pete75
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by pete75 »

UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:47pm
pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:34pm If the USA pulled out of Nato then the UK would follow like the good little poodle it is.
Do you really think the EU nations would trust the UK as part of any new alliance?
Rubbish. We'd continue to work with the Canadians, the Australians and the New Zealanders. Of course there's trust with our european partners when it comes to defence. France does like to be top dog though when it comes to Europe but we can live with that.
Only one of those three nations is in NATO.
It'll be Germany taking on the greatest expense and responsibility for defending the EU. There are three big nations Germany, France and Italy. Germany knows how easily France is defeated and that Italy is more of a hindrance than a help in a war.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Jdsk »

Psamathe wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:47pm
pete75 wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:42pm
UpWrong wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 10:30am That's ignoring GDP and the NATO threshold is with reference to GDP.
When it comes to buying weaponry, it's the total spend that's important not the percentage of GDP.
Where is this 2% or rather what is it 2% of? Or is buying weaponry a different parts of required expenditure (above 2%).
You got it right in your previous post. And the term contribution can cause confusion by the implication that there's a common financial pot.

But of course it's more complicated than that!
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 12 Feb 2024, 2:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Why does Trump lie so much?

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 1:57pm How’s about a bizarre option: invite Russia to join NATO.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50090.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO–Russ ... 1991–2004)

Jonathan
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