"The Political Influence of Motorists"

[mattheus]

*I came across a weird instance yesterday. Someone posted a photo of the ceremonial opening of an electric tramway in 1906 on a Facebook group that I look at, and among the oodles of comments were two from guys who seem to hate/loath/detest/fear trams, even pictures of old ones that closed down half a century ago, because they symbolise “enslavement”, in the same way that cycling infrastructure seems to, and 15 minute cities definitely do; these are the people for whom the ability to drive a car any place, any time they fancy is an inalienable right, and having the option to travel otherwise is a threat to that right. I think the term is “nutters”.

<snort!>

[axel_knutt]

I’m really not sure what political influence motorists have though the trade bodies surely have much. As a motorist my fuel is heavily taxed, insurance is a stupid price, and both dealers and manufacturers set out to sell me more expensive products that are beyond my needs and will become obsolete. The average driver is more victim and fodder for the system than aggressor, they (the average driver) are just someone who wants to get on with their life and has little say in things.

Don't you remember the protests that forced them to abandon the fuel tax escalator?

The poor old motorist who's being treated as a 'cash cow' is doing quite well out of it compared to those who use public transport:
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[mattheus]

Don't you remember the protests that forced them to abandon the fuel tax escalator?

Have any been sent to prison for obstructing the highway?

[axel_knutt]

Don't you remember the protests that forced them to abandon the fuel tax escalator?

Have any been sent to prison for obstructing the highway?

Exactly. When it comes to the environment, politics will quickly turn 'Vote Blue Get Green' into 'Cut the Green Cr*p', and 'Just Stop Oil' into 'Just Stop Superglue'.

[Carlton green]

I’m really not sure what political influence motorists have though the trade bodies surely have much. As a motorist my fuel is heavily taxed, insurance is a stupid price, and both dealers and manufacturers set out to sell me more expensive products that are beyond my needs and will become obsolete. The average driver is more victim and fodder for the system than aggressor, they (the average driver) are just someone who wants to get on with their life and has little say in things.

Don't you remember the protests that forced them to abandon the fuel tax escalator?

The poor old motorist who's being treated as a 'cash cow' is doing quite well out of it compared to those who use public transport:
.
Bus-Rail-Car Cost Comparison.jpeg

Thanks for that comparison chart, which I find quite stark. I should be shocked but I have simply come to regard buses as both expensive and slow, and have done so for years. Buses should be cheap and they should be frequent, they once were, but in a vicious circle they’ve become dearer, less frequent and - a lot of the time - relatively unused. With the exception of commuter times what few buses we have here, where I live, are 90% empty and those passengers that are on them are likely have free bus passes.

With relatively few people taking buses they aren’t much of a voting block; and whilst motorist might not be much of a voting block those struggling to keep a car on the road, to collect the kids and to get to work, aren’t keen on yet more fiscal burdens or taxes in any form.

[mattheus]

I’m really not sure what political influence motorists have though the trade bodies surely have much. As a motorist my fuel is heavily taxed, insurance is a stupid price, and both dealers and manufacturers set out to sell me more expensive products that are beyond my needs and will become obsolete. The average driver is more victim and fodder for the system than aggressor, they (the average driver) are just someone who wants to get on with their life and has little say in things.

Don't you remember the protests that forced them to abandon the fuel tax escalator?

The poor old motorist who's being treated as a 'cash cow' is doing quite well out of it compared to those who use public transport:
.
Bus-Rail-Car Cost Comparison.jpeg

Thanks for that comparison chart, which I find quite stark. I should be shocked but I have simply come to regard buses as both expensive and slow, and have done so for years. Buses should be cheap and they should be frequent, they once were, but in a vicious circle they’ve become dearer, less frequent and - a lot of the time - relatively unused. With the exception of commuter times what few buses we have here, where I live, are 90% empty and those passengers that are on them are likely have free bus passes.

With relatively few people taking buses they aren’t much of a voting block; and whilst motorist might not be much of a voting block those struggling to keep a car on the road, to collect the kids and to get to work, aren’t keen on yet more fiscal burdens or taxes in any form.

Buses are only £2 in many parts of England now. Of course that 2021 chart doesn't take that into account!

[axel_knutt]

The point I keep trying to plug is that the solution is about reversing the cost bias in that chart, not about building cycle paths. Buses & trains need to be too cheap not to use, and cars an expensive last resort. Car costs need to be changed to be steeply progressive instead of regressive, and charged by use not ownership. When I quit driving 19 years ago the bike was a realistic option when I wanted to go shopping in Chelmsford 12 miles away, or 15 miles to Colchester, but now I'm dependent on buses and trains, and it's no longer practical to go shop to shop looking for the best options like I could by bike or car. Costs need to compensate for that additional inconvenience.

They mentioned Leeds marketing itself as the Motorway City, and I recall thinking how exciting it seemed to have a motorway blasting through the middle of the city centre, but on the other hand here's the council in 1984 pointing out that Leeds also had Britain's largest pedestrianised shopping area, more green space per head than anywhere else in the country, and the biggest park in Europe. (I dug that guide out wondering if it had any reference to 'Motorway City', but I can't find any.)

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[TrevA]

Buses are only £2 in many parts of England now. Of course that 2021 chart doesn't take that into account!

I do hope they keep the £2 fare. The deadline for ending it keeps getting extended. My daughter used to drive into the office and pay £5 per day to park. She now takes the bus as it’s cheaper and easier (bus stops outside her office, car park is 5 mins walk away). When I get my bus pass next year, then we will use the bus for all of our local journeys as it’s just not worth taking the car and paying to park it. For 2 people, the car v bus cost balance isn’t quite there yet.

We are lucky to have a decent bus service - every 10 mins to the city, every hour or half hour to other local towns.

[thirdcrank]

@ axel_knutt


Leeds is still haunted by its pledge to be the “Motorway City of the Seventies”

Back in the 1970s, though, the city council was sufficiently gripped by the majesty of the motorways to make them a part of its branding. Letters sent from Leeds were stamped with a postmark proudly proclaiming the city’s modernity: “Leeds, Motorway City of the Seventies”.

https://citymonitor.ai/transport/leeds- ... nties-4644

I think this link covers your point - including a Motorway City of the 70s postmark

[Carlton green]

The point I keep trying to plug is that the solution is about reversing the cost bias in that chart, not about building cycle paths. Buses & trains need to be too cheap not to use, and cars an expensive last resort. Car costs need to be changed to be steeply progressive instead of regressive, and charged by use not ownership. When I quit driving 19 years ago the bike was a realistic option when I wanted to go shopping in Chelmsford 12 miles away, or 15 miles to Colchester, but now I'm dependent on buses and trains, and it's no longer practical to go shop to shop looking for the best options like I could by bike or car. Costs need to compensate for that additional inconvenience.

My emboldening.

The emboldened comments hit the nail upon the head, though I wouldn’t want to penalise those for who public transport simply isn’t a workable proposition. Public transport needs to be so attractive that - cycling aside - you’d be daft not to use it when you could. Buses aren’t as convenient as cars; once onboard buses take longer, they don’t run to your schedule, you have to wait in all weathers for them, luggage is limited and you aren’t (currently) guaranteed a seat. A sweet price helps to compensate for those inconveniences.

[Nearholmer]

I think part of the issue is that a high proportion of “not-motorists”, people who either can’t, or don’t, or would rather not, or rarely do choose to drive a car, are not the potentially swing voters that the current administration desperately needs to attract, so there’s no point offering them sweeties at the moment.

As to buses and trains, the thing to always bear in mind is population density. Railways have high fixed infrastructure costs, so only work really well as a mode for local transport where population densities are high, cities and suburbs essentially. Tramway/light-rail is economical down to lower population densities, and bus lower still, but when the density gets very low, rural areas essentially, it becomes unjustifiable to operate frequent bus services - you certainly can’t make a profit out of it, and the per user subsidy from the public purse become crazily high.

To get some idea of the economics of it, go back to the situation before mass car ownership, no later than c1960 say, and look at public transport provision then, and hold in mind that rural railways were already in deep, deep financial trouble at that stage (hence Beeching). Rural bus services were much thicker on the ground than they are now, but they didn’t run frequently in the least populous areas.

My instinct is that the medium term future will see further shift towards public transport, cycling, and walking further out into suburban density areas, back to how it used to be in those areas essentially, but that in areas with low population densities personal car use will remain the norm. The trickiest places are possibly towns set in rural areas, small islands of high-ish density, because they involve a clash of needs between locals (walk, cycle, or a town-circular ‘bus route) and hinterllanders, who need access and parking for cars.

[Bmblbzzz]

I don't think it's that most people who drive "identify as motorists" but that driving is the default transport mode, so taxing fuel, vehicles, parking, etc, is seen as taxing a necessity; like a bread and water tax.

[mjr]

[…]but in a vicious circle they’ve become dearer, less frequent and - a lot of the time - relatively unused. With the exception of commuter times what few buses we have here, where I live, are 90% empty and those passengers that are on them are likely have free bus passes.

You still have buses that are useful to commuters? Lucky you! With an 8ish first arrival in town and 540ish last departure here, it's now no longer possible for even those on 8-4:30 shifts or 9-5:30 shops and offices to use them, except for the small catchment within 10 minutes of the bus station who are sure they can leave dead on time. 10-6, 2-10 and overnight shifts are stuck, as usual.

[plancashire]

I've now listened to it once.
...

Thanks for the summary, with which I agree. I heard it too, somewhat delayed as a podcast.

The interesting point they made for me was that many people who drive would much rather travel some other way but can't. We need to hear more from these people.

I was one until I moved countries. My wife too. The car barely moves now. On Friday we had lunch with friends. In the past we have driven there, but the car is not working right now (broken rear windscreen). My wife has used the bus before but the weather was sunny so we rode our bikes there. It's not a long distance as the ferry over the Rhein cuts off a huge detour. It was a great ride and lunch too.