Not pedalling

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
toontra
Posts: 1279
Joined: 21 Dec 2007, 11:01am
Location: London

Re: Not pedalling

Post by toontra »

simonineaston wrote: 26 Mar 2024, 10:41am This all makes for a high risk working environment one way and another.

So think of that next time you’re tempted to order a burger on deliveroo.
In London there have been many cases of delivery riders being mugged and stabbed (sometimes fatally) for their bike/phone/cash. A tough life indeed.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Psamathe »

I'm confused by this thread. Several saying law is wrong/bad/out-of date but nobody saying what it should be changed to.

If I get my 250cc ICE motorbike 0-60 in 3 secs and put pedals/chain on it should I be able to use it on shared use cycle paths and not need insurance? If my high performance 2-wheel machine does 0-60 in 10 secs but is battery rather than hydrocarbon powered (and has pedals that do nothing) again, shared paths also used by push-chairs filled with babies and me not needing insurance?

etc., etc.

A line has to be drawn. I assume the line drawn on the basis of safety, utility and impact on others. Plus, that law has to be relativelyt easy to enforce eg if a suspected machine requires specialist testing only done in Manchester costing £2000 then the law cannot be realistically enforced.

So what do those suggesting changes want things changed to?

Ian
Pebble
Posts: 2014
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Pebble »

Psamathe wrote: 26 Mar 2024, 12:37pm I'm confused by this thread. Several saying law is wrong/bad/out-of date but nobody saying what it should be changed to.

If I get my 250cc ICE motorbike 0-60 in 3 secs and put pedals/chain on it should I be able to use it on shared use cycle paths and not need insurance? If my high performance 2-wheel machine does 0-60 in 10 secs but is battery rather than hydrocarbon powered (and has pedals that do nothing) again, shared paths also used by push-chairs filled with babies and me not needing insurance?

etc., etc.

A line has to be drawn. I assume the line drawn on the basis of safety, utility and impact on others. Plus, that law has to be relativelyt easy to enforce eg if a suspected machine requires specialist testing only done in Manchester costing £2000 then the law cannot be realistically enforced.

So what do those suggesting changes want things changed to?

Ian
the law surrounding eBikes is simple, but like everything else on the road enforcement is just a joke.

If someone is going up hill without pedalling and they are not wearing a motorbike helmet.....
stodd
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Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Not pedalling

Post by stodd »

Psamathe wrote: 26 Mar 2024, 12:37pm I'm confused by this thread.
If I get my 250cc ICE motorbike 0-60 in 3 secs and put pedals/chain on it should I be able to use it on shared use cycle paths and not need insurance? If my high performance 2-wheel machine does 0-60 in 10 secs but is battery rather than hydrocarbon powered (and has pedals that do nothing) again, shared paths also used by push-chairs filled with babies and me not needing insurance?
The special exemptions to allow some e-bikes (Often called pedelecs) to count as regular bikes only apply to electric powered bikes, so that rules out the 250cc bike. The nominal 250w and max 15.5mpg assisted rules exclude the 0-60 ebike.

A line has to be drawn. I agree with your comment there has to be a line somewhere; I personally think it is in about the right place.

So what do those suggesting changes want things changed to?. The commonest requests for change are (1) a higher nominal motor power, (2) a higher max assisted speed, (3) throttle assistance without pedalling up to the max assisted speed.
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Psamathe »

Spent the morning in Norwich and ALL the bikes I saw underway were not being pedalled. quite a few the food delivery people.

My worry is that it gives those arguing for bike registration (plates) and compulsory insurance a bit of a case. Where there are what appear to be bikes but being obviously powered by motors then makes it a lot harder to counter the madness coming from the likes of Lord Winston and others in Westminster. We might all get tarred with the same brush.

Ian
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pjclinch
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Re: Not pedalling

Post by pjclinch »

Psamathe wrote: 2 Apr 2024, 2:09pm Spent the morning in Norwich and ALL the bikes I saw underway were not being pedalled. quite a few the food delivery people.

My worry is that it gives those arguing for bike registration (plates) and compulsory insurance a bit of a case. Where there are what appear to be bikes but being obviously powered by motors then makes it a lot harder to counter the madness coming from the likes of Lord Winston and others in Westminster. We might all get tarred with the same brush.
The thing is these are electric motorbikes and they are already required by law to have registration plates and insurance (and a proper crash hlemet).
"These things that must have registration plates and insurance and don't mean that these things which don't need them should have them!" doesn't make much sense as a driver for legislation, and while I can see various of the velophobe constituency thinking it sounds completely sensible you'll need more than that to get it in to the legislature.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Psamathe »

pjclinch wrote: 2 Apr 2024, 3:26pm
Psamathe wrote: 2 Apr 2024, 2:09pm Spent the morning in Norwich and ALL the bikes I saw underway were not being pedalled. quite a few the food delivery people.

My worry is that it gives those arguing for bike registration (plates) and compulsory insurance a bit of a case. Where there are what appear to be bikes but being obviously powered by motors then makes it a lot harder to counter the madness coming from the likes of Lord Winston and others in Westminster. We might all get tarred with the same brush.
The thing is these are electric motorbikes and they are already required by law to have registration plates and insurance (and a proper crash hlemet).
"These things that must have registration plates and insurance and don't mean that these things which don't need them should have them!" doesn't make much sense as a driver for legislation, and while I can see various of the velophobe constituency thinking it sounds completely sensible you'll need more than that to get it in to the legislature.

Pete.
My worry or where I see a growing issue is that increasingly to get things into legislation you need public opinion or the possibility that there are some votes to be had. Common sense, good of society, practicality, common sense, etc. no longer seem to take any importance, just whose political career will benefit and where votes might be had.

I don't think legislation is imminently going to impose restrictions on genuine cyclists but if public opinion swings to a changed view of "cyclists" more to the perception they have become "motor vehicles avoiding tax & insurance" it becomes harder to defend the current situation. Maybe add a couple of injured pedestrians from some fool on some illegal "bike" and politicians might see something to distract the electorate for bigger issues and might help get votes.

I appreciate that these motor cycles with pedals are legally not bicycles but to many of the public max. wattage, max. speeds with assistance, etc. are irrelevant when they just see a motor cycle with pedals avoiding tax, insurance, etc.

Ian
toontra
Posts: 1279
Joined: 21 Dec 2007, 11:01am
Location: London

Re: Not pedalling

Post by toontra »

On my commute this morning I don't think I saw a singe human-powered bike, but there were literally hundreds of electric hire-bikes and delivery riders. This is central London just past rush hour (during rush hour you still have hardened season-round cyclists).

The tide has turned. The future is electric.
martink
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2023, 10:27am

Re: Not pedalling

Post by martink »

Out for a leisure ride this morning (Sunday) I was frightened when a rider swept past me at much greater speed. The sudden noise at my elbow was the shock. Narrow road next to the river Thames. Small diameter wheels, fat tyres, pedals not being turned. Half a mile up the road I saw him off the bike at the side of the road. I slowed down for a look. He was struggling to push the bike. The rear wheel was seized and skidding on the tarmac. Thrown chain wrapped around the rear end. I didn't pause to take in the detail.

Was the bike being operated outside it's designed performance limits? I do not know. I do think regulating such vehicles as motorcycles should be enforced, according to the current law.
the snail
Posts: 353
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by the snail »

Psamathe wrote: 26 Mar 2024, 12:37pm I'm confused by this thread. Several saying law is wrong/bad/out-of date but nobody saying what it should be changed to.

If I get my 250cc ICE motorbike 0-60 in 3 secs and put pedals/chain on it should I be able to use it on shared use cycle paths and not need insurance? If my high performance 2-wheel machine does 0-60 in 10 secs but is battery rather than hydrocarbon powered (and has pedals that do nothing) again, shared paths also used by push-chairs filled with babies and me not needing insurance?

etc., etc.

A line has to be drawn. I assume the line drawn on the basis of safety, utility and impact on others. Plus, that law has to be relativelyt easy to enforce eg if a suspected machine requires specialist testing only done in Manchester costing £2000 then the law cannot be realistically enforced.

So what do those suggesting changes want things changed to?

Ian
20mph assist limit, throttles allowed, no requirement to pedal.
martink
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2023, 10:27am

Re: Not pedalling

Post by martink »

the snail wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 6:29pm 20mph assist limit, throttles allowed, no requirement to pedal.
If there is no requirement to pedal, what is being assisted?
Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Psamathe »

the snail wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 6:29pm 20mph assist limit, throttles allowed, no requirement to pedal.
If no requirement to pedal why bother fitting pedals. I can limit my 250cc motorbike to 20 mph so your tules would allow me to ride it in shared use cycle/pedestrian paths.

Ian
the snail
Posts: 353
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by the snail »

Psamathe wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 7:20pm
the snail wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 6:29pm 20mph assist limit, throttles allowed, no requirement to pedal.
If no requirement to pedal why bother fitting pedals. I can limit my 250cc motorbike to 20 mph so your tules would allow me to ride it in shared use cycle/pedestrian paths.

Ian
The requirement to pedal doesn't improve safety and disadvantages those who have difficulty pedalling. Your motorcycle probably exceeds the 250W rating. Would your m/c be safer if it had no throttle and you had to turn some pedals instead. IIRC they removed the requirement for pedals from mopeds because it served no useful purpose.
Psamathe
Posts: 18141
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by Psamathe »

the snail wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 10:00pm
Psamathe wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 7:20pm
the snail wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 6:29pm 20mph assist limit, throttles allowed, no requirement to pedal.
If no requirement to pedal why bother fitting pedals. I can limit my 250cc motorbike to 20 mph so your tules would allow me to ride it in shared use cycle/pedestrian paths.

Ian
The requirement to pedal doesn't improve safety and disadvantages those who have difficulty pedalling. Your motorcycle probably exceeds the 250W rating. Would your m/c be safer if it had no throttle and you had to turn some pedals instead. IIRC they removed the requirement for pedals from mopeds because it served no useful purpose.
Your proposed "change to" suggestion didn't include a 250W limit regulation.

Ian
the snail
Posts: 353
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: Not pedalling

Post by the snail »

Psamathe wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 10:07pm
the snail wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 10:00pm
Psamathe wrote: 15 Apr 2024, 7:20pm

If no requirement to pedal why bother fitting pedals. I can limit my 250cc motorbike to 20 mph so your tules would allow me to ride it in shared use cycle/pedestrian paths.

Ian
The requirement to pedal doesn't improve safety and disadvantages those who have difficulty pedalling. Your motorcycle probably exceeds the 250W rating. Would your m/c be safer if it had no throttle and you had to turn some pedals instead. IIRC they removed the requirement for pedals from mopeds because it served no useful purpose.
Your proposed "change to" suggestion didn't include a 250W limit regulation.

Ian
because it's not a change, is it?
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