BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
10
14%
are quiet and smooth
7
10%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 73

Biospace
Posts: 2050
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Carlton green wrote: 21 Mar 2024, 6:24pm H’mm, can’t argue with that eBay listing of sold goods but I’m not sure that I’d buy an electric car off of eBay.

The small battery (24Kwh) Leafs are the earlier ones and even if the batteries are in really good condition - which I think unlikely - they have limited range which constrains what they might be used for. A pal of mine has one and it’s really only any use for short journeys near to home … a lot of folk would find them impractical and hence the prices. If battery replacement and enhancement was available for sensible money then they’d sell much better (IMHO).

I checked on Cazoo what Leafs were available under £10k and a Gen 1 with a 30 KWh battery is about £7.5k, there was nothing for £5k.
https://www.cazoo.co.uk/cars/nissan/lea ... price-desc
Yes, you pay for the protection a car trader offers and more on top to have a car delivered to your door from the other end of the country.

It would be interesting to compare the water-tightness of a Cazoo warranty for an older EV with that of a third party provider. I've read the motor trade treats EV batteries as consumable items and how far you expect to travel on battery power is open to so many variables - and therefore the ability for warranty providers to explore ways to wriggle out.

A cheap BEV would surely be seen as nothing more than a local run about with no expectation to travel more than 40 miles on a charge. For most people, a very large proportion of their trips are incredibly short ones, which is where cars with engines make least sense and BEVs make most sense - low speed, cold starts, multiple stopping and starting, many junctions and so on.

There is a certain irony that a BEV used for what it's best at is available so inexpensively, given the very high prices for those capable of driving almost half the length of Britain.
Last edited by Biospace on 21 Mar 2024, 7:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
Posts: 25029
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

...
Those with a £5K budget won't be looking at electric for some while to come.
Sorry to pick you up on just one point, but there were loads of Leafs being offered around £5k in 2018 by NIssan dealers and there are plenty under £5k today. Public perceptions hadn't been adjusted sufficiently in 2018, there was a good supply of second hand cars which were returned from the various forms of contract hire or leasing or whatever it's called. Many were like new, I very nearly bought one.

Here is a selection which sold recently, https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... Complete=1
H’mm, can’t argue with that eBay listing of sold goods but I’m not sure that I’d buy an electric car off of eBay.

The small battery (24Kwh) Leafs are the earlier ones and even if the batteries are in really good condition - which I think unlikely - they have limited range which constrains what they might be used for. A pal of mine has one and it’s really only any use for short journeys near to home … a lot of folk would find them impractical and hence the prices. If battery replacement and enhancement was available for sensible money then they’d sell much better (IMHO).

I checked on Cazoo what Leafs were available under £10k and a Gen 1 with a 30 KWh battery is about £7.5k, there was nothing for £5k.
https://www.cazoo.co.uk/cars/nissan/lea ... price-desc
Other sellers started at similarly heigh prices: https://www.bristolstreet.co.uk/used-ca ... lsrc=aw.ds
AutoTrader search:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search ... =price-asc

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2050
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

Plenty has been made of Nissan's announcement to abandonment their app for older Leafs with complaints from owners who are concerned they won't be able to control certain features remotely. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-68426263

However, these early BEVs lack much of the connectivity and reliance on software compared with newer BEVs, with today's cars moving ever closer towards an era of SDV (Software Defined Vehicles) and reliance on OTA (over the air) updates, so presumably increasing amounts of functionality will cease to be supported as aging hardware is no longer supported by software.

As a 2015 Android phone is obsolete mostly on account of the software it is permitted to run, so a 2024 BEV may be 'retired' by its manufacturers, unless 'jailbroken'. Which could yet be made illegal for vehicles, given the safety critical implications.

Abilities such as communication with public charging networks or updates to the latest safety firmware will at some point become impossible, something today's generation brought up on mobile phones may accept far more passively than I would. For big business and Government, is this their utopia with citizens locked in to a system which relies on everyone owning/using objects which are still supported by current software?

Maybe nobody would be so candid to admit to this, with the insurance companies being the ones to effect the obsolescence as they do with more complex/modern aircraft (note Spitfires still fly, Vulcans don't) and in another 20 years the original Nissan Leaf will have found its time?
Jdsk
Posts: 25029
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 16 Dec 2023, 12:25pm
Jdsk wrote: 9 Dec 2023, 10:58am Third Guardian article in the series:

"Is it right to be worried about getting stranded in an electric car?":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ng-network
Part four: "Are electric cars too expensive to tempt motorists away from petrol and diesel vehicles?":
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... l-vehicles
All of the parts:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/se ... ythbusters

Part eight:
"Are electric cars too heavy for British roads, bridges and car parks?"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -car-parks

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 25029
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

Jdsk wrote: 20 Mar 2024, 9:42am
UpWrong wrote: 19 Mar 2024, 10:37pm ...
The gap with BEVs has narrowed. It's being pointed out that there is near price equvialence between a Dacia Spring BEV and a Hyundai i10 ICE.
...
The latest on costs from Gartner: "Gartner Outlines a New Phase for Electric Vehicles":
https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/pre ... c-vehicles
Nissan's new plan includes price parity by 2030:
https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/240325-02-e
https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/nissan-p ... ce-parity/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... c-cars-evs

Jonathan
Biospace
Posts: 2050
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

the snail wrote: 28 Nov 2023, 8:29am
Biospace wrote: 26 Nov 2023, 5:06pm It appears that electric vehicle prices could continue to fall, with the advent of 'gigacasting' just around the corner and battery prices falling faster than expected - suggested to be by 40% from 2022 to 2025.

Will this mean a glut of cheap older BEVs or could the lack of repairability help push up second hand prices as cars which would once have received new structural sections after a crash be consigned to the crusher?

https://insideevs.com/news/671943/toyota-giga-casting/
https://electrek.co/2023/11/20/electric ... wn-faster/
I'm not sure if evs are any less repairable than other vehicles. The gigacastings from Tesla can be welded or replaced for £800, and you could probably pay that for a wing mirror these days. Like insurance it's probably unfamiliarity and lack of skilled people that is the problem at the moment.
UpWrong wrote: 19 Mar 2024, 10:37pm ...
The gap with BEVs has narrowed. It's being pointed out that there is near price equvialence between a Dacia Spring BEV and a Hyundai i10 ICE.
...
Jdsk wrote: 20 Mar 2024, 9:42am The latest on costs from Gartner: "Gartner Outlines a New Phase for Electric Vehicles":
https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/pre ... c-vehicles
Carlton green wrote: 18 Mar 2024, 7:39am
UpWrong wrote: 16 Mar 2024, 12:32pm Yes, I think that and the consequential insurance costs are now the main issues preventing me going down the BEV route.
...
One could be excused from thinking that BEV’s were toys for the wealthy and the business expenses driver. Why are these cars so expensive to insure? In part because they are so expensive to repair, so subject to non-repairability, so heavy (heavy cars do a lot of damage) and so powerful.

Cheaper new BEVs for those buying a new car, but will high insurance costs put many off whether buying new or used?

This means BEVs will reach ICE cost parity much faster than initially expected, but at the same time, it will make some repairs of BEVs considerably costlier” - from "Gartner Outlines a New Phase for Electric Vehicles"
jimlews
Posts: 1483
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 8:36pm
Location: Not the end of the world.

Re: BEVs

Post by jimlews »

I'll post the following without comment...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-66866327
User avatar
RickH
Posts: 5839
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: BEVs

Post by RickH »

jimlews wrote: 30 Mar 2024, 5:38pm I'll post the following without comment...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-66866327
But as there are at least 20x less fires in BEVs than ICE cars, for every 100 ICE cars that get replaced by BEVs there will be 19 less fires. The fires may need handling differently but there will be a lot fewer of them relative to the number of them.



(Edited to add that it is a video from Richard at Electric Classic Cars about battery safety & to change the link.)
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
User avatar
RickH
Posts: 5839
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: BEVs

Post by RickH »

On a different note (but still on YouTube)...

How about a new EV for £6000?

Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
UpWrong
Posts: 2450
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

RickH wrote: 30 Mar 2024, 6:29pm On a different note (but still on YouTube)...

How about a new EV for £6000?

According to "the electric viking", this is entirely a rebadged Chinese vehicle and TopGear reports that it struggles to get over 21/22mph. So about right for Welsh cities. To be fair, the alu body looks good and I like the 1+1 pillion style seating arrangement.
Jdsk
Posts: 25029
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

RickH wrote: 30 Mar 2024, 5:59pm
jimlews wrote: 30 Mar 2024, 5:38pm I'll post the following without comment...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-66866327
But as there are at least 20x less fires in BEVs than ICE cars, for every 100 ICE cars that get replaced by BEVs there will be 19 less fires. The fires may need handling differently but there will be a lot fewer of them relative to the number of them.



(Edited to add that it is a video from Richard at Electric Classic Cars about battery safety & to change the link.)
And as discussed upthread in the first of the Guardian series of myth busters:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... l-vehicles

Jonathan
Carlton green
Posts: 3729
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Carlton green »

UpWrong wrote: 31 Mar 2024, 4:09pm
RickH wrote: 30 Mar 2024, 6:29pm On a different note (but still on YouTube)...

How about a new EV for £6000?

According to "the electric viking", this is entirely a rebadged Chinese vehicle and TopGear reports that it struggles to get over 21/22mph. So about right for Welsh cities. To be fair, the alu body looks good and I like the 1+1 pillion style seating arrangement.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens. The price is in the right ball park to be a discretionary purchase for some and in an Urban environment it’s potentially better than cycling and public transport. These particular small electric cars are a bit too niche and limited to my mind, but Smart cars (with ICE’s) were actually capable of quite a lot and if the price had been lower then they’d have sold in much larger numbers.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
UpWrong
Posts: 2450
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

A nice review of the Ami.
Interesting point about how it makes it easier to overtake cyclists.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/hybrid ... e-net-zero
Jdsk
Posts: 25029
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Jdsk »

UpWrong wrote: 1 Apr 2024, 7:29am A nice review of the Ami.
Interesting point about how it makes it easier to overtake cyclists.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/hybrid ... e-net-zero
Thanks

Sounds as if it does what it says on the packet. And the author does well in describing her own needs and assessing the vehicle against those.

Jonathan
LancsGirl
Posts: 259
Joined: 5 Jun 2021, 9:57pm

Re: BEVs

Post by LancsGirl »

Jdsk wrote: 15 Mar 2023, 8:27am The best calculator that I have found so far for carbon dioxide emission, allows for manufacturing and use, selection of mileage, source of electricity, and regional factors:
https://climobil.connecting-project.lu/ ... nization=0

Jonathan
Thanks for that link Jdsk. It seems to be fairly configurable, so hopefully I will be able to calculate exactly when the "break-even" point, in regards of CO2 emissions, is for the BEV I've just bought.

I spent a huge amount of time researching my options, spreadsheets, autotrader, test drives, and suchlike. I looked at the various models of BEV available, looked at the internet for sources of information from people who actually owned the models I was looking at. I found one which I am fairly sure fits my needs.

I came to the conclusion that financially there was nothing in it. And I will probably be better off, in terms of TCO, with a EV. The main unknown being potential service/repair costs of the EV, and what those same costs might have been with an ICE (which I'll never know, of course).

In the end, as it was a wash financially, I thought I should put my money where my mouth is, and do something which will wipe 2.5 tonnes of direct CO2 emissions from my carbon footprint. Although the total CO2 emissions may be more complex than that, as per Jdsk's link, BEVs are one thing which will help us towards a low carbon future, and eventually, perhaps, net-zero.
Post Reply