Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Nearholmer
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Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Nearholmer »

I’ve often thought that learning from RTAs is not well-handled in comparison with good practice in terms of learning from accidents in other fields of activity. It’s not just the “invisibility” of accident reports, but the quality of investigation behind them, which still seems much more focused on the prosecution process, allocation of blame etc, than on prevention through learning.

It sometimes feels as if there is societal acceptance of quite a high level of deaths and injuries on the road, and that nobody much is bothered about learning from individual incidents, only any really stark trends.

Mind you, it’s not just RTAs. Great swathes of undesirable outcomes in society aren’t properly analysed to root cause level, I think because everyone knows that fingering the root causes would pose too many difficult questions about actions to remove them!
Jdsk
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Jdsk »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 2:22pm I’ve often thought that learning from RTAs is not well-handled in comparison with good practice in terms of learning from accidents in other fields of activity. It’s not just the “invisibility” of accident reports, but the quality of investigation behind them, which still seems much more focused on the prosecution process, allocation of blame etc, than on prevention through learning.

It sometimes feels as if there is societal acceptance of quite a high level of deaths and injuries on the road, and that nobody much is bothered about learning from individual incidents, only any really stark trends.

Mind you, it’s not just RTAs. Great swathes of undesirable outcomes in society aren’t properly analysed to root cause level, I think because everyone knows that fingering the root causes would pose too many difficult questions about actions to remove them!
Moving to a public health approach and concentrating on harm reduction would be an enormous advance. See also recreational drugs and control of guns.

Jonathan

PS: I've already linked to the proposed/ ? new Road Safety Investigation Branch.
irc
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Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by irc »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 2:22pm I’ve often thought that learning from RTAs is not well-handled in comparision
It sometimes feels as if there is societal acceptance of quite a high level of deaths and injuries on the road, and that nobody much is bothered about learning from individual incidents, only any really stark trends.
Is there a high level of deaths? Last year there was half a million UK deaths. Under 2000 were road deaths. Even cyclists will ride on average 28 million miles per fatality.

https://understandinguncertainty.org/fa ... oris-bikes

It has been learning from experience that road deaths have plummeted from the high levels of the 1970s despite higher numbers of cars.

Killed_on_British_Roads.png
Nearholmer
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Nearholmer »

Clearly lessons have been learned, I’m not saying that none have; what I’m saying is that road deaths and injuries don’t seem to be investigated with the vigour and rigour that other accidental deaths are.

Compared with any other field of activity they are still high, and in terms of injuries, high too.

Deaths from accidents don’t make up a huge proportion of deaths overall, <3%, most are disease/old-age/natural causes, and the only two categories of accidents that exceed “transport accidents” (of which the vast majority are on roads), are “falls”, and “poisonings” (which surprised me - I think it includes gas and CO).

Maybe road accident deaths and injuries are “low enough” by societal standards, despite me still thinking that they aren’t.

What do others think?
Last edited by Nearholmer on 12 Apr 2024, 4:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Bonefishblues »

c6,000 people annually die from accidents in their own homes.

Moral - no idea.

https://www.rsainsurance.co.uk/news/rsa ... %20injured.
Nearholmer
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Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Nearholmer »

Yes, I should guess that a large proportion of the two largest categories of deaths from accidents, falls and poisonings, which together sum to c10k/year, occur at home (both are taken seriously seriously as risks in workplaces). One lesson learned from that is that what used to be called “sheltered housing” is usually arranged not to require people to use stairs, and not to have any gas appliances.
irc
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Location: glasgow

Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by irc »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 3:42pm Clearly lessons have been learned, I’m not saying that none have; what I’m saying is that road deaths and injuries don’t seem to be investigated with the vigour and rigour that other accidental deaths are.
I have been on the periphery of the initial accident investigation into a few fatal RTAs. I would say it is pretty thorough. Roads closed for several hours. Detailed measurements. Photographs. Braking distances tested if the a vehicle involved is still driveable. All witnesses traced and interviewed. Media requests for dashcam footage. Etc.

As for learning lessons. Off the top of my head - don't get off a bus stopped on a dual carriageway then walk in front of it into the other lane while reading your phone. If you ride your motorbike fast enough to crash without any other vehicles involved or any road faults it may be fatal if you hit anything after leaving the bike. Walking along an unlit rural road facing away from traffic while dressed in black and drunk is a bad idea.

Of course we could do better. Why we let people give excuses and carry on driving after 4 speeding convictions baffles me for example. Why is using a mobile phone behind the wheel not an instant ban. The effect on driving is similar to being at the legal alcohol limit.
Nearholmer
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Nearholmer »

Root cause analysis is where I think it is seriously weak compared with accident investigation in other modes. Sometimes the legal process sort-of gets there by default, but nothing like always.
pwa
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by pwa »

Nearholmer wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 3:42pm Clearly lessons have been learned, I’m not saying that none have; what I’m saying is that road deaths and injuries don’t seem to be investigated with the vigour and rigour that other accidental deaths are.

Compared with any other field of activity they are still high, and in terms of injuries, high too.

Deaths from accidents don’t make up a huge proportion of deaths overall, <3%, most are disease/old-age/natural causes, and the only two categories of accidents that exceed “transport accidents” (of which the vast majority are on roads), are “falls”, and “poisonings” (which surprised me - I think it includes gas and CO).

Maybe road accident deaths and injuries are “low enough” by societal standards, despite me still thinking that they aren’t.

What do others think?
My thinking has always been that I am 100% certain to die of something, some day, and in the meantime I am not going to spend too much time worrying about risks that are, in fact, within the range I consider tolerable. And cycling on the roads (around here) falls into that category. Along with hill walking, crossing a field with cattle in whilst walking with the dog, and occasional visits to London and Birmingham. In the end I bet what kills me is my lack of discipline where biscuits and cake are concerned.
Nearholmer
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Nearholmer »

That’s not really a societal view of things, though, it’s a statement of individual risk acceptance. De-facto, everyone who uses the roads, which is possibly as near as makes no difference everyone, accepts the risk as it is now at an individual level, although many control their risk exposure by limiting precisely which roads they use how and when., so only accept the risk partially.
Bonefishblues
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Bonefishblues »

pwa wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 9:18pm In the end I bet what kills me is my lack of discipline where biscuits and cake are concerned.
Best keep them out of the jaw zone then.
pwa
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by pwa »

Bonefishblues wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 10:38pm
pwa wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 9:18pm In the end I bet what kills me is my lack of discipline where biscuits and cake are concerned.
Best keep them out of the jaw zone then.
Serious risk of further thread drift here. But the saga of my dietary waywardness is long and originates way back in the mists of time. And whenever a notional risk, such as from cycling on roads, raises its head, I compare and contrast with the greater risk from simply eating a bit too much of the wrong stuff. Or the higher risks other folk accept as a price for doing things that they love, like canoeing or horse riding.
Jdsk
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 13 Apr 2024, 7:09am ...
And whenever a notional risk, such as from cycling on roads, raises its head, I compare and contrast with the greater risk from simply eating a bit too much of the wrong stuff. Or the higher risks other folk accept as a price for doing things that they love, like canoeing or horse riding.
One useful tool for those comparisons is the micromort:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort
viewtopic.php?p=1785471#p1785471

Of course there's a massive gulf between numerate comparisons of risks and the whataboutery that is so prevalent in this forum.

Jonathan
Pebble
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Pebble »

Vorpal wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 1:28pm
Pebble wrote: 10 Apr 2024, 1:27pm
I wish you could get full accident details through FOI of any road traffic accident, I'm not wanting gory pics or personal details, but how and why would help me understand what goes wrong and how I can better look after myself.
But very often, the names of the people involved are public, or readily available. This means that if you have details of the road traffic crash, you effectively have personal details.
I'm sure it would be very simple to redact those and create an anonymous version
Jdsk
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Re: Cyclist dies after crashing into open car door

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 13 Apr 2024, 8:52am
Vorpal wrote: 12 Apr 2024, 1:28pm
Pebble wrote: 10 Apr 2024, 1:27pm I wish you could get full accident details through FOI of any road traffic accident, I'm not wanting gory pics or personal details, but how and why would help me understand what goes wrong and how I can better look after myself.
But very often, the names of the people involved are public, or readily available. This means that if you have details of the road traffic crash, you effectively have personal details.
I'm sure it would be very simple to redact those and create an anonymous version
Unnamed is easy, but do you mean unidentified or unidentifiable? (It's a well-known problem in reuse of medical data for research etc.)

As usual comparison with commercial aviation is helpful.

Jonathan
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