BEVs

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.

I appreciate the BEV mostly because they...

cost less to run than an equivalent petrol or diesel car
9
12%
are reducing the harm done to our planet and its lifeforms
11
15%
are quiet and smooth
7
9%
can be refuelled with my own renewable energy production
10
14%
can supply energy to the home and Grid
4
5%
No! I am concerned they are just another way of making the car seem acceptable
33
45%
 
Total votes: 74

Biospace
Posts: 2167
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

al_yrpal wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 11:19am My daughter says that vinyls are a significant source of income. They deliberately produce them in various hues and sign a limited number which sell for an even bigger premium. In the harsh world that musicians inhabit where they are exploited by everyone and their music is routinely stolen vinyls are a bright spot. In Italy recently bootlegged fake vinyls were openly on sale outside the venue!

Sorry for the diversion...

Al
That's interesting to hear, Al. Do people still buy vinyl for its perceived sound qualities, I wonder, or is it more for the visual aesthetics?
Braceby wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 10:02am We never unwrapped the charging cable on our hybrid. Our wall charger has an attached cable, so no need.
Very good point, you should write to the Telegraph!

reohn2 wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 8:47am A severely dischuffed Zoe owner's tale of woe,£11,000 for a heater repair on 5 year old BEV and no one seems to know if anyone's has the diagnostic software or the garage equipement to remove the battery to fix it!!! :- https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/ ... heater-car

In all fairness it could be a one off failure but a very costly one at a third the cost of the car when new!
As squeaker says, it sounds like more than just the car was 'at fault', but even so to design an appliance which requires a huge amount of dismantling to replace a cabin heater is not good for its longevity - as it is, most cars are economic writeoffs today, with their structure and major mechanical parts in good order. This is hugely wasteful of resources, bad for the environment and so on.

Unfortunately in a highly competitive marketplace, the last thing manufacturers desire is simple and inexpensive repair of items which in general only fail as a vehicle ages.
Biospace
Posts: 2167
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

hercule wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 10:59am I had to change my car late last year and did quite a bit of research on the topic… from what I read PHEVs are a bit of a con. If you mainly use the battery, you’re lugging about an IC engine that isn’t being used. And if you use the IC engine, emissions and economy is poor compared to the IC only version as you’re hauling about a battery and motor. Battery distance is usually only 30 miles, so the wild MPG estimates of 200 mpg are very unlikely to be seen. And you’ve got to add in the cost of chargers etc.
...
I think the con for society is two-fold - one, the quoted petrol economy figures which pretend that charging a battery is zero emission and zero cost and secondly that many PHEVs are engineered as little more than tax-dodging and high 'performance' purchases - rather than for the good of the environment.

From an engineer's perspective there are good and bad aspects of PHEVs. The downside is increased complexity (although the starter motor, alternator and even clutch and gearbox may be dispensed with, depending on design), the upside is that ICE emissions may be reduced considerably as it can be run more as a generator, or in a restricted power mode. Additionally, the battery pack can be many times smaller. If the statistics for private vehicle journey distances are correct, this alone is a huge positive.
UpWrong
Posts: 2483
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: BEVs

Post by UpWrong »

Biospace wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 3:03pm I think the con for society is two-fold - one, the quoted petrol economy figures which pretend that charging a battery is zero emission and zero cost and secondly that many PHEVs are engineered as little more than tax-dodging and high 'performance' purchases - rather than for the good of the environment.

From an engineer's perspective there are good and bad aspects of PHEVs. The downside is increased complexity (although the starter motor, alternator and even clutch and gearbox may be dispensed with, depending on design), the upside is that ICE emissions may be reduced considerably as it can be run more as a generator, or in a restricted power mode. Additionally, the battery pack can be many times smaller. If the statistics for private vehicle journey distances are correct, this alone is a huge positive.
Yes, but you've got the weight of an ICE engine plus a battery pack along with increased complexity. I think the BMW i3, no longer produced, was the last of the designs where the petrol engined powered a generator rather than the wheels.

I recall seeing some independent report which said that coasting was more effeicient than braking regeneration for the average driver. My instinct is that all hybrids are b*ll*cks and a con.
Biospace
Posts: 2167
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

UpWrong wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 3:45pm
Yes, but you've got the weight of an ICE engine plus a battery pack along with increased complexity.
That's what I said.
My instinct is that all hybrids are b*ll*cks and a con.
My observation is that plenty of models make use of the clear benefits of having a combination of ICE+EM, whether in series or parallel, but use these to make the cars faster rather than more economical and significantly lower emission. And then there are the SUVs and similar which have appeared to be little more than a tax dodge.
Biospace
Posts: 2167
Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

Re: BEVs

Post by Biospace »

UpWrong wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 3:45pm I recall seeing some independent report which said that coasting was more effeicient than braking regeneration for the average driver. My instinct is that all hybrids are b*ll*cks and a con.
Even were regen braking 100% efficient (which it certainly is not), there would still be heavier tyre wear and to a more limited extent, additional wear of the battery. The less air resistance and heavier the vehicle, the more thought is required not to have to use brakes unnecessarily, repeatedly on less congested roads. BEVs tend to be both heavy and slippery.
reohn2
Posts: 45397
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: BEVs

Post by reohn2 »

Biospace wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 2:34pm
    reohn2 wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 8:47am A severely dischuffed Zoe owner's tale of woe,£11,000 for a heater repair on 5 year old BEV and no one seems to know if anyone's has the diagnostic software or the garage equipement to remove the battery to fix it!!! :- https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/ ... heater-car

    In all fairness it could be a one off failure but a very costly one at a third the cost of the car when new!
    As squeaker says, it sounds like more than just the car was 'at fault', but even so to design an appliance which requires a huge amount of dismantling to replace a cabin heater is not good for its longevity - as it is, most cars are economic writeoffs today, with their structure and major mechanical parts in good order. This is hugely wasteful of resources, bad for the environment and so on.
    A car designed for the throw away society
    Unfortunately in a highly competitive marketplace, the last thing manufacturers desire is simple and inexpensive repair of items which in general only fail as a vehicle ages.
    Our neighbour had the same thing happen on her Volvo,thing was,the car was 31years old.....
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "All we are not stares back at what we are"
    W H Auden
    Biospace
    Posts: 2167
    Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Biospace »

    reohn2 wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 9:13pm A car designed for the throw away society
    ...
    Our neighbour had the same thing happen on her Volvo,thing was,the car was 31years old.....
    Is a modern Volvo likely to last 20 years though? I'm thinking falling quality than increased complexity, such is the cycle of things.
    reohn2
    Posts: 45397
    Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by reohn2 »

    Biospace wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 8:52am
    reohn2 wrote: 17 Apr 2024, 9:13pm A car designed for the throw away society
    ...
    Our neighbour had the same thing happen on her Volvo,thing was,the car was 31years old.....
    Is a modern Volvo likely to last 20 years though? I'm thinking falling quality than increased complexity, such is the cycle of things.
    You got it in one :wink:
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "All we are not stares back at what we are"
    W H Auden
    Braceby
    Posts: 88
    Joined: 29 Mar 2024, 8:23pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Braceby »

    Who here actually has a BEV? It'd been interesting to hear of makes, models and experiences.
    Jdsk
    Posts: 25831
    Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Jdsk »

    Braceby wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 11:43am Who here actually has a BEV? It'd been interesting to hear of makes, models and experiences.
    Yes.

    There are quite a few experiences upthread. And of course they're very helpful in identifying the repetitive FUD for what it is.

    Jonathan
    Biospace
    Posts: 2167
    Joined: 24 Jun 2019, 12:23pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Biospace »

    Braceby wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 11:43am Who here actually has a BEV? It'd been interesting to hear of makes, models and experiences.
    I currently don't own one but have driven several BEVs over thousands of miles. Does this count?

    Some of these experiences are dotted around the thread but it would be easier to condense these into one post so I'll post something up in the next day or so.
    Carlton green
    Posts: 3847
    Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Carlton green »

    Biospace wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 12:32pm
    Braceby wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 11:43am Who here actually has a BEV? It'd been interesting to hear of makes, models and experiences.
    I currently don't own one but have driven several BEVs over thousands of miles. Does this count?
    :D Only saying how wonderful they are is allowed, anything else is unhelpful FUD :wink: .
    Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
    Jdsk
    Posts: 25831
    Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Jdsk »

    Carlton green wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 2:32pm
    Biospace wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 12:32pm
    Braceby wrote: 18 Apr 2024, 11:43am Who here actually has a BEV? It'd been interesting to hear of makes, models and experiences.
    I currently don't own one but have driven several BEVs over thousands of miles. Does this count?
    Only saying how wonderful they are is allowed, anything else is unhelpful FUD
    There's a massive (!) difference between discussion of advantages and disadvantages and FUD. Here's a brief introduction to FUD:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_unc ... _and_doubt

    Jonathan
    Jdsk
    Posts: 25831
    Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

    Re: BEVs

    Post by Jdsk »

    Jdsk wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 10:46am
    al_yrpal wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 10:09am Yesterday I did something unusual. Drove back to my old haunt, South Potholeshire. This involved 150 miles some of iton the M4 so I stopped at Leigh Delamere services for a break, there and back. On the return I was shocked to see a line of shiny electric charging points. But, on the way I remembered there were none! Checked it on Google, thats right, none on tbe Eastbound side? So, range anxious Londoners can top up, but us Worzles from the West have to whistle?
    al_yrpal wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 10:39am Perhaps they were invisible, not obvious anyway.
    My emboldening.

    They're shown on Google Maps:


    Screenshot 2023-06-15 at 10.41.53.png

    But this illustrates the problem beautifully. EV users rapidly learn how to use the built-in software and the relevant apps. They don't try to find charging locations by looking around.

    I recommend Zapmap as a starting point:
    https://www.zap-map.com
    Planned improvements to Google Maps:
    https://electrek.co/2024/04/17/these-ne ... ogle-maps/

    IIUC that includes real-time charger availability, as on Zapmap, and route finding.

    Jonathan
    wheelyhappy99
    Posts: 253
    Joined: 5 Jul 2020, 11:12am

    Re: BEVs

    Post by wheelyhappy99 »

    Who here actually has a BEV? It'd been interesting to hear of makes, models and experiences.
    Kia eNiro, bought with 8000 miles on the clock about a year ago. Lots of information on range etc upthread. Quiet, quick, comfortable. And with a smart meter and Octopus tariff 10,000 miles charged at home is £200. Charging on motorways etc costs about the same per mile as ICE.
    Post Reply