brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8173
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by simonineaston »

Getting my cycles ready for spring, I turned my attention to the front brake and notice that the perfectly ordinary cable with a metal ferrule doesn't sit neatly into the socket of the Shimano 105 caliper brake. It's distinctly out of line… am I missing something?
cable isn't straight
cable isn't straight
Last edited by simonineaston on 24 Apr 2024, 8:08am, edited 1 time in total.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Jdsk
Posts: 25784
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by Jdsk »

I've just had a similar moment while putting one of the tandems back together.

Is the ferrule round and straight and undamaged?

Jonathan
rareposter
Posts: 2164
Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by rareposter »

Ferrules aren't used on the housing with Shimano shifters or brakes.
That adjustment thing pretty much functions as a ferrule itself so no need for them.

Edit: to clarify - they're not used on the connections to the brake lever or into the caliper. They are only use in mid-run cable breaks where the outer goes into a stop in the frame, the inner runs along the down tube and then it's picked up by more outer - those bits have ferrules. The bit into calipers does not.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8173
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by simonineaston »

Thanks, rp - I’ll try it without. :D
EDIT - now ferruleless at the brake end, the cables line up nicely. It seems somehow unlikely that I could of got through well over half a century of cycle maintenance without this useful snippet of info having dawned on me but there you go… you live & learn, apparently!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
cyclop
Posts: 1003
Joined: 3 Oct 2013, 7:49am
Location: Dumfriesshire

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by cyclop »

simonineaston wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 1:18pm Thanks, rp - I’ll try it without. :D
EDIT - now ferruleless at the brake end, the cables line up nicely. It seems somehow unlikely that I could of got through well over half a century of cycle maintenance without this useful snippet of info having dawned on me but there you go… you live & learn, apparently!
+1 !!
gregoryoftours
Posts: 2247
Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by gregoryoftours »

Many gear stops in Shimano shifters do require a ferrule, if in doubt check the product manual. If designed for a ferrule, not using one will likely end up with the hole for the inner cable to pass through jamming up with the longitudinal gear housing strands because the diameter is too big.

Brake cables are another matter, many designed for use sans ferrule, but also not as critical an issue as the outer is spiral wound.
User avatar
foxyrider
Posts: 6083
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by foxyrider »

gregoryoftours wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 9:21pm Many gear stops in Shimano shifters do require a ferrule, if in doubt check the product manual. If designed for a ferrule, not using one will likely end up with the hole for the inner cable to pass through jamming up with the longitudinal gear housing strands because the diameter is too big.

Brake cables are another matter, many designed for use sans ferrule, but also not as critical an issue as the outer is spiral wound.
think you are getting a bit confused, decent brake outer will be longitudale to help prevent compression, gear outer, IME is usually spiral wound
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
mattsccm
Posts: 5133
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by mattsccm »

He is correct. Maybe terminology. Gears have many thin wire running along the cable, brakes have one spiralling round. New style compressionless excluded .
gregoryoftours
Posts: 2247
Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm

Re: Cable/ferrule interaction

Post by gregoryoftours »

foxyrider wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 7:49pm
gregoryoftours wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 9:21pm Many gear stops in Shimano shifters do require a ferrule, if in doubt check the product manual. If designed for a ferrule, not using one will likely end up with the hole for the inner cable to pass through jamming up with the longitudinal gear housing strands because the diameter is too big.

Brake cables are another matter, many designed for use sans ferrule, but also not as critical an issue as the outer is spiral wound.
think you are getting a bit confused, decent brake outer will be longitudale to help prevent compression, gear outer, IME is usually spiral wound
If by decent brake outer you are referring to compressionless then yes in that case the strands are longitudinal. In that case some kind of kevlar or steel weave will need to be around that to hold it all together under heavy compression forces. Still most brake outer is not compressionless and is tightly spiral wound, and while it may have a little sponginess in a long continuous section it's nevertheless very stable under heavy compression loads.

The strands in gear outer you could say very gently spiral, but effectively they are longitudinal. They don't have any kind of weave/strong reinforcement around them which is why it's unsafe to use gear outer for brakes. Very old gear outer back in friction shifting days was proper spiral wound like conventional brake outer.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8173
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by simonineaston »

My Question was about brake cables. I’ve edited the subject line accordingly. And in the interest of enquiry, I’ve ordered some “compressionless” cable outer too!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
User avatar
foxyrider
Posts: 6083
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by foxyrider »

simonineaston wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 8:07am My Question was about brake cables. I’ve edited the subject line accordingly. And in the interest of enquiry, I’ve ordered some “compressionless” cable outer too!
I wouldn't use anything else, its a game changer for braking performance. Back in the mists of time we didn't know any better and you used the same spiral outer cable for gears and brakes, there wasn't a choice, now they are different diameters and different 'layup' to optimise performance.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
the snail
Posts: 350
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by the snail »

foxyrider wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 7:37pm ... Back in the mists of time we didn't know any better and you used the same spiral outer cable for gears and brakes...
Because there was no point- if you're not using indexed gears, or a long cable run to a rear disc brake, then a bit of compression in the cable doesn't matter.
Brucey
Posts: 44860
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by Brucey »

jagwire make some nice ferrules which accept 5.0 mm housing and are lined, too. These ferrules are almost solid Al at one end, ripe for making a special size. If you buy these in one of the larger sizes, you can turn them down (or SG them) so that they fit nicely into any odd-sized holes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
User avatar
foxyrider
Posts: 6083
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by foxyrider »

the snail wrote: 28 Apr 2024, 2:14pm
foxyrider wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 7:37pm ... Back in the mists of time we didn't know any better and you used the same spiral outer cable for gears and brakes...
Because there was no point- if you're not using indexed gears, or a long cable run to a rear disc brake, then a bit of compression in the cable doesn't matter.
It wasn't that there was no point, the stuff didn't exist. Having fitted modern brake outer on my 70's road bike i can tell you that it does make quite a difference in performance.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8173
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: brake cable outer /ferrule interaction

Post by simonineaston »

I just fitted jagwire compressionless to both bikes and although there is a difference, it's not night & day...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Post Reply