Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

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Jdsk
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 19 Apr 2024, 11:43am Ah, Engineering and the Professional Institutes. I can’t say that I follow these things anymore, so maybe I’m incorrect, but I believe that you now need an MSc to become a Chartered Engineer; ultimately such high level qualifications say nothing much about your ability to make commercially sound decisions and are purely a reflection of academic achievement in some technical area.

In my own working life I have rarely used the higher level technical skills that I learnt at University; the bulk of my colleagues didn’t use higher level University taught technical skills either but what we did use were HNC/D level technical skills and what appreciation we had of commercial factors. I don’t object to people of lower technical skills and education calling themselves Engineers, the term Chartered Engineer is reserved for those working at the (academic) top of the profession. We do need ‘Boffins’, they supply key information and some projects couldn’t be successful without them, but ultimately they’re a tool or resource for the technically and commercially informed to use as they go about making stuff and wealth creation happen.

As a country we focus on Universities and think them wonderful. Unfortunately we overlook, neglect and disparage the Craftsman and Engineering Technician; we blindly see no value in such people and have ‘let go’ of Colleges of Art and Technology. A good part of turning the country around would be to acknowledge - and embrace - the different intellects, talents and skills of people. Set aside elitism and bits of paper; focus instead on attitudes, personal achievements and professional achievements (using the term professional to include all paid work).

The likes of Lawyers and Chartered Accountants are at the top of businesses because they’re the ones making the commercial decisions. If Professional Engineers want to be more respected then the route to it is via business skills, how does what you do make commercial sense and produce profit? Are you simply a Boffin or the person who skilfully uses that person to produce wealth?

Is a Boffin worth no more than a Bus Driver? That all depends which skill is in more demand, ‘cause ultimately that demand level together with scarcity of supply dictate the price of everything at any moment in time.
My emboldening.

You don't. And it only takes a minute to check.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Jdsk »

al_yrpal wrote: 19 Apr 2024, 1:50pm Dont get me wrong I hold the utmost respect for skilled craftsmen because I was trained as one for the first two years of my apprenticeship and was required to work to a very high standard. Same for technicians, but in their case many of them work in very specialised fields. I also have respect for domestic appliance technicians with extensive knowledge in their field.
Just dont confuse them with Engineers.
The different uses of engineer in the UK are very confusing and very unfortunate. But they're well-established and I'm not expecting much change. Chartered status might help.

Jonathan
pwa
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by pwa »

I have a (non-engineering) friend who works for a niche aerospace engineering company locally, and he tells me that his company is used to coming up with new, refined designs, only to see them miraculously appear on the market within a year as Chinese copies.
Carlton green
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Carlton green »

pwa wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 9:59am I have a (non-engineering) friend who works for a niche aerospace engineering company locally, and he tells me that his company is used to coming up with new, refined designs, only to see them miraculously appear on the market within a year as Chinese copies.
There should be no surprises anywhere about that … let’s just say that the Chinese have their own way of doing things and they’re questionable. :(
. An accredited Bachelor's degree with honours in engineering or technology, plus either an appropriate Master's degree or engineering doctorate accredited by a Licensee, or appropriate further learning to Masters level
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK)

Seems pretty much Masters level to me, and if you manage to get in via the Honours Degree route then only the higher honours level will be accepted. If you go back far enough a HND was enough, but the ladder keeps being pulled up.

A friend speaks of her husband. He left school and ended up with a HNC in electronics, he’s now managing many staff and earning a packet. Sometimes he takes on Graduates but finds them poorly suited to hitting the ground running and just a cost. At the end of the day he runs his company to generate profits and has to turn academics into engineers … he’d rather recruit someone with less academic skills and more practical ones.

Whatever, he must be wrong and just lucky, everyone knows that C Eng status is essential for success … :roll:

It’s a stupid arms race. Once a HND was enough, then you needed a degree, then an honours degree, then a 2i or higher and now (basically) an MSc. What next?
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 19 Apr 2024, 11:43am Ah, Engineering and the Professional Institutes. I can’t say that I follow these things anymore, so maybe I’m incorrect, but I believe that you now need an MSc to become a Chartered Engineer; ultimately such high level qualifications say nothing much about your ability to make commercially sound decisions and are purely a reflection of academic achievement in some technical area.
Carlton green wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 10:25am ...
An accredited Bachelor's degree with honours in engineering or technology, plus either an appropriate Master's degree or engineering doctorate accredited by a Licensee, or appropriate further learning to Masters level
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK)

Seems pretty much Masters level to me...
What you've quoted is one section of one of the pathways:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered ... quirements

It's generally more helpful to others not to cherrypick like that, and either cite without quoting or quote all of the relevant information.

As the Engineering Council puts it: "You can still become a Chartered Engineer without these academic qualifications.".
https://www.engc.org.uk/ceng

Jonathan
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al_yrpal
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by al_yrpal »

Well, I was a Chartered Mechanical Engineer and a Chartered Electrical Engineer but that wouldnt help me if I wanted to rewire my house. :lol: Its all about knowledge and experience anyway...

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Carlton green
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Carlton green »

al_yrpal wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 11:30am Well, I was a Chartered Mechanical Engineer and a Chartered Electrical Engineer but that wouldnt help me if I wanted to rewire my house. :lol: Its all about knowledge and experience anyway...

Al
Yes, I think so and having been senior management and successful in business you’ll know. At the end of the day it’s what you do with what you’ve got that counts.

The UK has long been good at creative things but fails to capitalise on its inventions and fails to invest in manufacturing and the practical/applied sciences. As a nation our business management seems to focus on squeezing out the last bit of profit from what assets a company has and then distributing it to over eager shareholders; there’s a refusal to delay taking profits and to look to the longer term future. … and then there’s the unchecked culture of corporate corruption and eye watering bonuses at board level.

Anyone know why Thames Water is going bust? :roll:
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
ANTONISH
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by ANTONISH »

Carlton green wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 10:25am
pwa wrote: 20 Apr 2024, 9:59am I have a (non-engineering) friend who works for a niche aerospace engineering company locally, and he tells me that his company is used to coming up with new, refined designs, only to see them miraculously appear on the market within a year as Chinese copies.
There should be no surprises anywhere about that … let’s just say that the Chinese have their own way of doing things and they’re questionable. :(
. An accredited Bachelor's degree with honours in engineering or technology, plus either an appropriate Master's degree or engineering doctorate accredited by a Licensee, or appropriate further learning to Masters level
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK)

Seems pretty much Masters level to me, and if you manage to get in via the Honours Degree route then only the higher honours level will be accepted. If you go back far enough a HND was enough, but the ladder keeps being pulled up.

A friend speaks of her husband. He left school and ended up with a HNC in electronics, he’s now managing many staff and earning a packet. Sometimes he takes on Graduates but finds them poorly suited to hitting the ground running and just a cost. At the end of the day he runs his company to generate profits and has to turn academics into engineers … he’d rather recruit someone with less academic skills and more practical ones.

Whatever, he must be wrong and just lucky, everyone knows that C Eng status is essential for success … :roll:

It’s a stupid arms race. Once a HND was enough, then you needed a degree, then an honours degree, then a 2i or higher and now (basically) an MSc. What next?
Years ago I had an acquaintance - someone with "more front than Brighton" as the saying went.
He had an ONC in mechanical engineering - saw a job advertised asking for HNC which he claimed to have - got the job and performed well.
Some time later he applied for a job asking for a Bsc which he got.
I've lost touch with him - he's probably having a well earned retirement.
thirdcrank
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by thirdcrank »

I'll suggest there's a difference between increasing the level of qualification required for a post and applicants overstating their own qualifications when applying for the post although one may lead to the other

I only know what I've read on the BBC News www, but that's my interpretation of the case of the late Wayne Brown who after 27 years service in the London Fire Brigade had achieved the rank of assistant commissioner with a lot of operational experience. Mr Brown then transferred to the West Midlands as chief. Sounds like the ideal chap for the job, except that the qualifications for that post included holding a degree of Master of Business Administration (MBA) which it now seems he did not hold.

When the police attended, they found Mr Brown appeared to have taken his own life.
Terrible loss of a good man
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-58953739
Carlton green
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Carlton green »

ANTONISH wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 9:50am Years ago I had an acquaintance - someone with "more front than Brighton" as the saying went.
He had an ONC in mechanical engineering - saw a job advertised asking for HNC which he claimed to have - got the job and performed well.
Some time later he applied for a job asking for a Bsc which he got.
I've lost touch with him - he's probably having a well earned retirement.
Some years back I knew someone who couldn’t quite manage to pass his accountancy exams, it was back in the day when you had to take a load of papers in one go and pass all of the papers in one sitting - a tough challenge of, I think, questionable merit.

The chap was personable and hardworking. He’d go to an interview, find out what the employer expected and then tell them that he could do that. If offered the job he’d accept and then make sure that he could - and did - deliver the promised skills, I haven’t that ‘front’ and couldn’t live like that but he was successful and IMHO deservedly so.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
tim-b
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by tim-b »

I've lost touch with him - he's probably having a well earned retirement.
Or a break for some other reason... it can be fraud.

Cifas, which fights economic crime, says that 1 in 12 adults lie about qualifications on their CV. Knowing that, why don't organisations check?
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
ANTONISH
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by ANTONISH »

tim-b wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 8:18am
I've lost touch with him - he's probably having a well earned retirement.
Or a break for some other reason... it can be fraud.

Cifas, which fights economic crime, says that 1 in 12 adults lie about qualifications on their CV. Knowing that, why don't organisations check?
One could ask why organisations specify a "qualification" that is not necessary to perform the task offered.
I have heard it said that it is just a sifting process.
IMO passing an examination shows that you have the ability to pass an examination but doesn't show that you can perform any useful function in the workplace.
Carlton green
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Carlton green »

ANTONISH wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 9:47am
tim-b wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 8:18am
I've lost touch with him - he's probably having a well earned retirement.
Or a break for some other reason... it can be fraud.

Cifas, which fights economic crime, says that 1 in 12 adults lie about qualifications on their CV. Knowing that, why don't organisations check?
One could ask why organisations specify a "qualification" that is not necessary to perform the task offered.
I have heard it said that it is just a sifting process.
IMO passing an examination shows that you have the ability to pass an examination but doesn't show that you can perform any useful function in the workplace.
^^ Agreed, though folk who have passed some exams do tend to be more capable than those who haven’t passed any. Personnel departments use all types of filters and some of them ditch candidates that could well do a good job. Life’s not fair and that’s all there is to it.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Jdsk »

There are many examinations that directly test skills. And I'm sure that many readers of this thread will have taken them.

Jonathan
Braceby
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Re: Just how long will it take to turn this ship around?

Post by Braceby »

ANTONISH wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 9:50am

Years ago I had an acquaintance - someone with "more front than Brighton" as the saying went.
He had an ONC in mechanical engineering - saw a job advertised asking for HNC which he claimed to have - got the job and performed well.
Some time later he applied for a job asking for a Bsc which he got.
I've lost touch with him - he's probably having a well earned retirement.
All conmen have "more front than Brighton". Fraud by False Representation can attract quite severe punishment.
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