Default 20mph for Wales

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Bmblbzzz »

It's a default speed limit. So if you don't see signs indicating otherwise, assume it's 20. That's the point of being default.
pwa
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Psamathe wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 10:42am
pwa wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 9:01am On the Brackla housing estate in Bridgend, nearly everything is 20mph, but the two main circulatory roads have some 30mph sections. And three variable sections beside schools, where electronic signs light up as either 20 or 30 depending on the time of day or the day of the week. I'm used to that on motorways, but on urban streets it is new to me.
I thought most of those flashing light school signs were advisory rather than mandatory. At least the ones round me are. Or have I demonstrated my failure to know the Highway Code?

(I did check recently as some have gone up round me and they are coming on at daft times of day and there is no end other than a 30 repeater sign between flashing 20 school sign and the school itself. But I accept I may be wrong on this).

Talking about these things: Image

Ian
Not those. Actual mandatory red circle speed signs, but as a screen of coloured lights. I sometimes see the same sort of thing over motorway lanes. The red circle indicates that it is mandatory. At certain times of day they show 20, at other times 30.
Pete Owens
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

pwa wrote: 24 Apr 2024, 9:01am On the Brackla housing estate in Bridgend, nearly everything is 20mph, but the two main circulatory roads have some 30mph sections. And three variable sections beside schools, where electronic signs light up as either 20 or 30 depending on the time of day or the day of the week. I'm used to that on motorways, but on urban streets it is new to me.
The problem here is that the local highway authority in Bridgend appears to be one of those that is basically opposed to the national policy and has pushed the guidelines to the absolute limit and beyond to exempt as many roads as possible from the 20 mph limit. There really is no way that that sort of road, threading its way through a residential area - thus used by pedestrians and cyclists at all times over its entire length to get about their neighbourhood should have been been considered for exemption with an honest interpretation of the guidelines.

In most areas of Wales such roads are simply part of the normal urban limit. Just imposing limits on short stretches outside schools and just at school opening times has long been shown to be ineffective and not recommended even in England. Which is of course why the speed lobby argues for such things.
AllRides
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by AllRides »

Latest on this seems to be that the announcement has resulted in anti-20 campaigns flooding their local council with ideas. Somewhat amusingly there’s a few arguments going on in some road/traffic Facebook groups I’m in about one persons idea of needing 30 and others. Ken Skates talked about consensus - good luck with that!

More seriously, it is starting to feel a bit Brexity and I have a genuine concern that people wanting 20 in their street will assume that it will stay because it’s ‘obvious’ when others are pushing for it to go 30. Getting people to write to their councillors to say “keep my 20” is going to be important in the light of the atmosphere and differing opinions (one council has already said that 20s are mostly only right for schools).
Jdsk
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Jdsk »

AllRides wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 8:32am Latest on this seems to be that the announcement has resulted in anti-20 campaigns flooding their local council with ideas. Somewhat amusingly there’s a few arguments going on in some road/traffic Facebook groups I’m in about one persons idea of needing 30 and others. Ken Skates talked about consensus - good luck with that!

More seriously, it is starting to feel a bit Brexity and I have a genuine concern that people wanting 20 in their street will assume that it will stay because it’s ‘obvious’ when others are pushing for it to go 30. Getting people to write to their councillors to say “keep my 20” is going to be important in the light of the atmosphere and differing opinions (one council has already said that 20s are mostly only right for schools).
Thanks for this. Understanding the nature of the debate is very important in achieving the desired goals.

I'd concentrate on harm reduction. And that does require evidence.

I wouldn't expect going tribal or whataboutery to be successful. Have you followed the recent threads on the BBC Antisocial programme and on colliding with car doors?

Jonathan
Pete Owens
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

AllRides wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 8:32am Latest on this seems to be that the announcement has resulted in anti-20 campaigns flooding their local council with ideas.
It works both ways.
In areas (eg Bridgend mentioned above) there is the opportunity for road safety campaigners to advocate roads that have been unjustifiably exempted should be subject to the 20 mph limit.

This is what happened in Buckley (one of the pilot areas so a year ahead in terms of implementation). There was a lot of noisy anti-20 campaigning and some stretches of road were indeed reverted to 30mph, but at the same time the A road through the town, which had initially been left at 30mph was reduced to 20mph.
AllRides
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by AllRides »

Pete Owens wrote: 26 Apr 2024, 12:17am
AllRides wrote: 25 Apr 2024, 8:32am Latest on this seems to be that the announcement has resulted in anti-20 campaigns flooding their local council with ideas.
It works both ways.
In areas (eg Bridgend mentioned above) there is the opportunity for road safety campaigners to advocate roads that have been unjustifiably exempted should be subject to the 20 mph limit.

This is what happened in Buckley (one of the pilot areas so a year ahead in terms of implementation). There was a lot of noisy anti-20 campaigning and some stretches of road were indeed reverted to 30mph, but at the same time the A road through the town, which had initially been left at 30mph was reduced to 20mph.
Buckley and that A road in particular is significantly responsible for the current minister’s desire to backtrack.
Pete Owens
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

Indeed.

The "we got it wrong" quotes from ministers last year about Buckley :
https://www.deeside.com/20mph-speed-lim ... n-buckley/
were very similar to what is now being reported about the rest of Wales.

The boundaries of the limits were reviewed and this resulted in some stretches of road reverting to 30mph.
But one of the things they got wrong was not including the main road though town - and that was also corrected..
I expect a similar approach to be taken across Wales.

Now, as others have pointed out, there will be floods of applications from anti-20 campaigners for roads to be reverted whole scale to 30mph, but the policy hasn't actually changed - any suggestions will be reviewed against the same guidelines and in most cases this will result in the same answers.
Ron
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Ron »

Meantime there is what appears to be a thoroughly researched thread on Twitter on the anti 20 campaign groups.

@WillHayCardiff
So I have been having a little look at the people who run some of the Welsh anti-20mph Facebook groups.
Jdsk
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Jdsk »

Ron wrote: 28 Apr 2024, 4:18pm Meantime there is what appears to be a thoroughly researched thread on Twitter on the anti 20 campaign groups.

@WillHayCardiff
So I have been having a little look at the people who run some of the Welsh anti-20mph Facebook groups.
https://twitter.com/WillHayCardiff/stat ... de%3Dfalse

and unrolled:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1746 ... 60337.html

Jonathan
pwa
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Pete Owens wrote: 27 Apr 2024, 11:10pm Indeed.

The "we got it wrong" quotes from ministers last year about Buckley :
https://www.deeside.com/20mph-speed-lim ... n-buckley/
were very similar to what is now being reported about the rest of Wales.

The boundaries of the limits were reviewed and this resulted in some stretches of road reverting to 30mph.
But one of the things they got wrong was not including the main road though town - and that was also corrected..
I expect a similar approach to be taken across Wales.

Now, as others have pointed out, there will be floods of applications from anti-20 campaigners for roads to be reverted whole scale to 30mph, but the policy hasn't actually changed - any suggestions will be reviewed against the same guidelines and in most cases this will result in the same answers.
I'm hoping you are correct about that. It certainly looks that way.
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by ratherbeintobago »

@jdsk They’ve not long been busted doing a similar thing with AstroTurfy anti-ULEZ groups
Jdsk
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Jdsk »

ratherbeintobago wrote: 28 Apr 2024, 6:04pm @jdsk They’ve not long been busted doing a similar thing with AstroTurfy anti-ULEZ groups
Oh yes.

And this argument needs to be won both on the evidence of effects and by changing other people's views. And many of those other people will sometimes drive cars.

Jonathan
ratherbeintobago
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by ratherbeintobago »

We need to make and win an emotional argument too - as with Brexit, the facts alone won’t cut it.
pwa
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Apr 2024, 6:10pm
ratherbeintobago wrote: 28 Apr 2024, 6:04pm @jdsk They’ve not long been busted doing a similar thing with AstroTurfy anti-ULEZ groups
Oh yes.

And this argument needs to be won both on the evidence of effects and by changing other people's views. And many of those other people will sometimes drive cars.

Jonathan
I have a bit more faith in my fellow human beings than some people, and I think there is a lot of quiet acceptance of the wisdom of having lower speed limits on most of the road network affected by the changes. A few selective tweaks here and there, mostly on main roads, should satisfy enough people to reduce the noise to a bit of background rumbling from hardliners.
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