UK Politics

[Nearholmer]

Sad fact seems to be though, that we are “a million miles” from having a system that provides people with the very basics at an affordable price, let alone a sizeable three bed house and a quarter of an acre (there is a small 1950s council estate near where I live that is like that, where the corner gardens particularly are huge - one guy who lives there is locally famous for growing huge pumpkins on his every year).

[Jdsk]

Sad fact seems to be though, that we are “a million miles” from having a system that provides people with the very basics at an affordable price, let alone a sizeable three bed house and a quarter of an acre (there is a small 1950s council estate near where I live that is like that, where the corner gardens particularly are huge - one guy who lives there is locally famous for growing huge pumpkins on his every year).

Yes. I was limiting my suggestions to what might be achievable from where we are now.

And council housing shouldn't be judged by the worst examples from half a century ago.

Jonathan

[Braceby]

Sad fact seems to be though, that we are “a million miles” from having a system that provides people with the very basics at an affordable price, let alone a sizeable three bed house and a quarter of an acre (there is a small 1950s council estate near where I live that is like that, where the corner gardens particularly are huge - one guy who lives there is locally famous for growing huge pumpkins on his every year).

Yes. I was limiting my suggestions to what might be achievable from where we are now.

And council housing shouldn't be judged by the worst examples from half a century ago.

Jonathan

I'm judging it by the best examples from 70 years ago.

[Jdsk]

"Jeffrey Donaldson has appeared in court charged with rape, gross indecency and other sexual offences spanning 21 years in a case that has stunned Northern Ireland.
"His wife, Eleanor Donaldson, appeared alongside him at Newry magistrates court in County Down on Wednesday and was charged with aiding and abetting rape and indecent assault.
"Donaldson, 61, faces 11 charges: one count of rape, one count of gross indecency towards a child and nine counts of indecent assault on a female from 1985 to 2006. The allegations relate to two complainants."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ecency-dup

Sub judice, of course. And there's recent warning by the Attorney General about use of social media:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-68703964

Jonathan

[al_yrpal]

So, Council Housing is the answer....If enough were built to create a housing surplus I suppose it might help.
My solution would be to reduce the population to create a surplus.
Neither is either a quick or certain recipé....

Al

[Jdsk]

So, Council Housing is the answer....If enough were built to create a housing surplus I suppose it might help.
My solution would be to reduce the population to create a surplus.
Neither is either a quick or certain recipé....

Council (or similar) housing is part of the answer. Other parts are taxation and subsidy systems that provide incentives to use resources efficiently, much higher minimum standards for quality and security and sustainability, regional policy...

... and a planning system that is aligned to explicit objectives. And, as always, it's worth looking at Labour's policies on this.

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

Neither is either a quick or certain recipé....

Indeed, which is why all I can ever come up with are very radical interventions in the housing market with a view to making best use of the housing space we already have (and I still contend that there is enough to go round if it was equitably distributed).

Reducing the population (assuming that you don’t propose to organise a physical cull) is an extra tricky thing right now, because of the demographic profile.

The ONS estimates that if net migration was zero then the population would fall by 3m over the 25 years to 2050 (18m deaths – 15m births), but if that were allowed to happen, the ratio of not-working -elderly to workers would be so great as to be unsustainable, which is why net immigration, thereby increasing the population, increasing pressure on housing, over that span, is part of every credible plan, including (behind all the distraction techniques) that of the present government.

Maybe the radical intervention shouldn’t be in the housing market, but in geriatric medicine, to get the practitioners to be a bit less good at keeping people alive.

[Jdsk]

Neither is either a quick or certain recipé....

Indeed, which is why all I can ever come up with are very radical interventions in the housing market with a view to making best use of the housing space we already have (and I still contend that there is enough to go round if it was equitably distributed).

Reducing the population (assuming that you don’t propose to organise a physical cull) is an extra tricky thing right now, because of the demographic profile.

The ONS estimates that if net migration was zero then the population would fall by 3m over the 25 years to 2050 (18m deaths – 15m births), but if that were allowed to happen, the ratio of not-working -elderly to workers would be so great as to be unsustainable, which is why net immigration, thereby increasing the population, increasing pressure on housing, over that span, is part of every credible plan, including (behind all the distraction techniques) that of the present government.

Maybe the radical intervention shouldn’t be in the housing market, but in geriatric medicine, to get the practitioners to be a bit less good at keeping people alive.

Yes (apart from the last bit). We aren't going to improve the quality of accommodation by reducing national productivity.

And Vorpal has already posted the numbers.

Jonathan

[Braceby]

So, Council Housing is the answer....If enough were built to create a housing surplus I suppose it might help.
My solution would be to reduce the population to create a surplus.
Neither is either a quick or certain recipé....

Al

Council house building could be a quick solution. In 1953, when Britain was very much poorer than it is now and was still recovering from WW2, 198,000 council houses were built. In 1949 when the post war economy was in a dire state, 168,000 were built. Throughtout the fifties building never fell below 100,000 a year, and almost 1.5 million were built during the decade.

[Carlton green]

Neither is either a quick or certain recipé....

Indeed, which is why all I can ever come up with are very radical interventions in the housing market with a view to making best use of the housing space we already have (and I still contend that there is enough to go round if it was equitably distributed).

Reducing the population (assuming that you don’t propose to organise a physical cull) is an extra tricky thing right now, because of the demographic profile.

The ONS estimates that if net migration was zero then the population would fall by 3m over the 25 years to 2050 (18m deaths – 15m births), but if that were allowed to happen, the ratio of not-working -elderly to workers would be so great as to be unsustainable, which is why net immigration, thereby increasing the population, increasing pressure on housing, over that span, is part of every credible plan, including (behind all the distraction techniques) that of the present government.

Maybe the radical intervention shouldn’t be in the housing market, but in geriatric medicine, to get the practitioners to be a bit less good at keeping people alive.

Perhaps another answer would be to raise the retirement age to 70 and at the same time to make work more manageable for the older folk. The UK trashes lots of older people who would very happily continue working at a steady pace in a steady job. It’s all about sustainability and that covers a multitude of factors many of which simply aren’t on anyone’s radar.

[Jdsk]

...
Perhaps another answer would be to raise the retirement age to 70 and at the same time to make work more manageable for the older folk. The UK trashes lots of older people who would very happily continue working at a steady pace in a steady job. It’s all about sustainability and that covers a multitude of factors many of which simply aren’t on anyone’s radar.

Yes, there's a lot of underused resource in older people.

How would you connect that to housing? Other than through productivity?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: The UK doesn't really have an official retirement age...

[Nearholmer]

There is no “retirement age”, but I sort of know what you mean: much more could be done to capitalise on the capabilities of older people. The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot of older people provide some degree of child care in support of younger people working full time.

It does all loop back to The Productivity Thing, though, because another facet of our economy is that a high proportion of those who are working are doing so in low-productivity environments.

(Crossed jdsk in the ether)

[Carlton green]

...
Perhaps another answer would be to raise the retirement age to 70 and at the same time to make work more manageable for the older folk. The UK trashes lots of older people who would very happily continue working at a steady pace in a steady job. It’s all about sustainability and that covers a multitude of factors many of which simply aren’t on anyone’s radar.

Yes, there's a lot of underused resource in older people.

How would you connect that to housing? Other than through productivity?

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: The UK doesn't really have an official retirement age...

That’s the pity about not including sufficient earlier posts.

With more UK Nationals in work there’s less need for migrants and that eases (population) pressure for more housing. See Nearhomer’s earlier post for the link.

There is no forced retirement age and IMHO that is as it should be. We retire when pensions kick in. Raise that age for State and Private Pensions and all of a sudden there will be more people in the workplace; however it’s really important to ease up on what’s expected of older people.

[Jdsk]

Thankyou

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

...
Perhaps another answer would be to raise the retirement age to 70 and at the same time to make work more manageable for the older folk. The UK trashes lots of older people who would very happily continue working at a steady pace in a steady job. It’s all about sustainability and that covers a multitude of factors many of which simply aren’t on anyone’s radar.

With more UK Nationals in work there’s less need for migrants and that eases (population) pressure for more housing. See Nearhomer’s earlier post for the link.

Let's check the numbers on what contribution that could make on housing. With an outcome measure of how much additional accommodation could be avoided.

In the year ending December 2023 616,000 work visas were granted. And 81,000 family visas, although some of those won't be for families of workers.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... statistics

The average age of retirement is about 66 years. There's about one million people in each year of age.

Of course beyond that initial estimate of possible substitution there are other factors including ability to do the substituted work, where the work is needed and where the people live, and the much higher density of accommodation of many immigrant workers.

Jonathan